Air Quality - wood stoves - vehicles - farming

[Born Hunter 17,832]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44203396

Apparently not a ban on stoves, yet, but we're edging that way and my understanding is that the science backs it too.

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But a Defra spokesman told BBC News that open fires, coal-burning and wood-burning would not be nationally banned.

Instead, new stoves – including wood-burners – would have to be cleaner. And people would also be encouraged to burn dry wood, because it emits fewer particulates.

Mr Parr said this was far too vague: "Will hard-pressed environmental health officers really be checking on wet wood in forecourts?” he asked.

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The Left's opinion on the Gov's clean air policy,

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Sue Hayman MP, Labour's Shadow Environment Secretary, said: "Michael Gove has become the Secretary of State for Consultations - with over 25 consultations published by his department since the General Election and not a single piece of primary legislation brought forward."

Green Party co-leader Caroline Lucas said: "It's good to see a strategy finally published - but the details of this plan look extremely underwhelming. The Government is using a water pistol to put out the air pollution wildfire."

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I'm torn on this subject. I get that we want to make life healthier for everyone but at the same time I honestly think we pursue 'progress' blindly with no care for the sterilised world that the absolute form of that ideology will lead to. Our base desires and comforts are being replaced with 'healthier' ones and I ain't at all convinced that it's necessarily good. That's a bit of a tangent mind, for the most part I support improving and protecting the environment.

[Greyman 29,556]

I have several woodburners I,m in a smokeless zone yet I live just outside of avonmouth, my kids went to school in one of the 20 worst air quality schools in the country and most blokes  round here die of the big C early the air is full of fly,s when the sun comes out ,I have 2 of those blue light fly zapper things in my kitchen all summer and fly screens on the door, several power stations and an Astra zenika chemical plant, that would leave a crater if it ever caught fire and I,m not allowed to burn wood, I respect your understanding of the sciences etc but I see it as no more than a government closing  another means of people staying warm without lining there pockets personaly

Edited May 22, 2018 by Greyman

[scothunter 12,609]

I burn smokeless in my charnwood but a lot in the village don't. Im sure there a f***ing guy burns copper wire in his fire. Lol

Sometimes in winter there is a thick smog that hangs over the village then there is the soot that makes you're windows filthy! 

Aye im all for enforcing the smokeless policy. It's 2018 not 1818

[WILF 48,096]

Wouldn’t want the shares in petro-chemical companies to drop too much old boy or that rather handy position on the board to become non existent now would we

i am self sufficient in heating fuel and completely off grid in that regard.....cost me £8 a week when I work it out.

There won’t be many free lunches at Shell Mex house if its easy to do it on your own for £8 a week  

[Waz 4,274]

Difficult for them to tax logs..

New law here in France now apparently, all logs to be declared, gendarmes have the right to pull you over if youve a trailer load and ask for proof etc. Coincedence..?

Ive just had 70m3 of oak of off my place best part of E4k, I wont need to do it again for a good few years, but theirs people who have made a good living doing this, im sure they all declare it in their tax..

[Born Hunter 17,832]

  On 22/05/2018 at 10:52, Waz said:

Difficult for them to tax logs..

New law here in France now apparently, all logs to be declared, gendarmes have the right to pull you over if youve a trailer load and ask for proof etc. Coincedence..?

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I think it's all been initiated by EU policy. Every individual state is going about it in different ways I guess.

[Born Hunter 17,832]

  On 22/05/2018 at 08:02, scothunter said:

I burn smokeless in my charnwood but a lot in the village don't. Im sure there a f***ing guy burns copper wire in his fire. Lol

Sometimes in winter there is a thick smog that hangs over the village then there is the soot that makes you're windows filthy! 

Aye im all for enforcing the smokeless policy. It's 2018 not 1818

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That's okay mate but it's not just the particulates that are a health concern. The COx and NOx produced from stoves are also a pretty significant source of pollution from a public health perspective. I can see the public health argument will see wood burning stoves and open fires banned or very expensive emissions capture technology made mandatory in the future.

I suppose regulations like this are inescapable in a growing modern society...

[WILF 48,096]

  On 22/05/2018 at 11:07, Born Hunter said:

That's okay mate but it's not just the particulates that are a health concern. The COx and NOx produced from stoves are also a pretty significant source of pollution from a public health perspective. I can see the public health argument will see wood burning stoves and open fires banned or very expensive emissions capture technology made mandatory in the future.

I suppose regulations like this are inescapable in a growing modern society...

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Realistically are solid fuel heating systems a major health concern ?......I don’t bloody think so, the air quality in my old area is in the top 10 worst in Britain and nobody uses solid fuel heating at all.

 

[Born Hunter 17,832]

  On 22/05/2018 at 13:23, WILF said:

Realistically are solid fuel heating systems a major health concern ?......I don’t bloody think so, the air quality in my old area is in the top 10 worst in Britain and nobody uses solid fuel heating at all.

 

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I don't know the details of this subject intimately enough to be an authority on this. But I have seen enough to be left uncomfortable by it.

Here's a quick google find on particulate pollution by the Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/12175306/Is-my-wood-burning-stove-really-killing-me-What-happened-when-I-monitored-my-exposure-to-pollution.html

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But even at Trafalgar Square, surrounded by buses, taxis and cars, it registered no more than 14ug/m³ [microgram per cubic metre].

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Wood-burning stoves have been the subject of various hostile medical reports in recent years, but not enough to put off the estimated 200,000 consumers who install them each year, either because they want to save on heating bills or they love it as a manifestation of affluent frugality. There are now 1.2m homes in the UK with one.

Prof Grigg said: “It is true to say that if you burn anything, it will produce little particles of soot. It doesn’t matter if that soot comes from fossil fuel or wood-burning, those particles are going to get deep down into your lung. And this has a potential to cause a harmful effect.”

After an hour of mine burning brightly, the dial settled between 41ug/m³ and 43ug/m³ in my sitting room. This is still within “moderate”, but Prof Grigg said you might want to start worrying if you exposed yourselves to long, sustained periods at this level.

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Another with a bit more information. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/01/pollutionwatch-wood-burning-worsening-uk-air-quality

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Between 2005 and 2007, 1,110 old wood stoves were replaced in the small town of Libby, Montana. Wintertime particle pollution reduced by 28% and children had less wheeze, respiratory infections and sore throats. After banning wood burning on 100 of the most polluted days in California’s San Joaquin Valley in 2012, between 7% and 11% fewer old people were admitted to hospital with different types of heart problems. Finally, particle pollution dropped by 40% in Launceston, Tasmania when many wood-burning homes were converted to electric heating. Death rates in the over-65s fell by about 10%, an effect most clearly seen in men. In contrast, there were no matching health changes in nearby Hobart, which was outside the conversion scheme.

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[Greyman 29,556]

To live in harmony with our enviroment the world population should be around 50million ( that would put us in line with other mammals) our current population is around 70billion and rising, by charging a tax on logs it will achieve zero, the cows we rear to feed the worlds population give off more harmful gasses than all the cars, the only solution is a massive reduction in the population not another increase in tax,s, but when the world is run by the greediest minority, money will always over rule common sense and will eventually lead to our demise

[Gav 1,708]

I burn around 5 - 6 ton of peat a year, we only burn peat as there's no trees here and peat is free, nothing going stop me burning free fuel and we have some of the best air quality in the country. Hope no one sees the plumes of crap my old tractor churns out too, maybe I should get the right injector pump

[tilimangro 1,013]

If people knew the real pollution levels in London not the ones they release but the genuine ones they’d be horrified

my mate used to monitor them and he said it’s a guaranteed killer

[WILF 48,096]

  On 22/05/2018 at 13:41, Born Hunter said:

I don't know the details of this subject intimately enough to be an authority on this. But I have seen enough to be left uncomfortable by it.

Here's a quick google find on particulate pollution by the Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/12175306/Is-my-wood-burning-stove-really-killing-me-What-happened-when-I-monitored-my-exposure-to-pollution.html

 

 

Another with a bit more information. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/01/pollutionwatch-wood-burning-worsening-uk-air-quality

 

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Honestly mate, where I used to live you’d be better off sealing the house and smoking 20 bensons than going for a walk.

the planet burned wood for how many hundreds of thousands of years and I reckon the air quality was a million times better?......it’s only in very recent history that we started burning fossil fuels and the jobs f****d (scientifically speaking) 

That don’t take any working out at all, it’s just obvious pal.

[CushtyJook 1,097]

In the winter I sell firewood its seasoned well and we have it all bagged and ready to go by October can only think this is going to make it harder for us smaller sellers  to sell the wood I have 

[Born Hunter 17,832]

  On 22/05/2018 at 14:26, WILF said:

Honestly mate, where I used to live you’d be better off sealing the house and smoking 20 bensons than going for a walk.

the planet burned wood for how many hundreds of thousands of years and I reckon the air quality was a million times better?......it’s only in very recent history that we started burning fossil fuels and the jobs f****d (scientifically speaking) 

That don’t take any working out at all, it’s just obvious pal.

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These are two different things though mate. The main argument against fossil fuels is regarding their impact on the climate. There is health arguments too of course but my understanding is that from a public health angle pollutants are most concentrated close to the source, hence why studies have shown that living right by a road is a greater health risk than away from the main road or even just having a hedge between you. My point being that we aren't running cars through our living room or gardens, but we are burning wood. The effects of these sources of pollution (on outside air) seem to be significant in urban areas, logically due to proximity and density of polluting sources.

I'm not sure we can easily compare to hundreds or thousands of years ago for a few reasons. The general air quality was surely much better say a thousand years ago, generally due to the human population being in the millions and no industrialisation. But even then, the conclusion on the local air quality (in the home or in small urbanised areas) is not so easily determined as better. Like I said, density and proximity of these pollution sources seems to be the significant factor.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Born Hunter