Jeremy Corbyn aka Adolf Hitler.

[JohnGalway 1,043]

On 4/2/2018 at 18:03, WILF said:

Which is? 

I'm not reading it for you.

[WILF 47,432]

Zzzzzzzz......zzzzzzzzz......zzzzzzz

[Born Hunter 17,798]

12 hours ago, Blackbriar said:

So it's not illegal  be an atheist, but it's not legal ?

Chris probably knows better than me. What I think I understand is as follows;

Seven states have it in law that a godless heathen cannot hold office, that's their state law (either constitutional or statute, I'm not sure). However, the US constitution has supremacy over the states! And according to SCOTUS that supreme piece of law (specifically the very first amendment of the Bill of Rights no less) rules that those seven states' laws on atheists holding office is unconstitutional and therefore not legitimate, it's overridden by Federal law. They may still be state law but when/if challenged at the Federal level by a prospective atheist politician the state would lose. How the Federal government could/would deal with a state that still refused to acknowledge that overriding and supreme ruling I don't know....

https://www.quora.com/What-happens-if-a-state-defies-the-Supreme-Court

I think the point really though, is that law or not, it shows how theism is ingrained into american culture and politics.

[WILF 47,432]

I don’t think that American model has anything to do with trying to impose religion on the non religious, because I am thinking it could be easily seen that way.

The way I see fitting Christianity with public office is this, be you a believer or a non believer there is no getting away from the fact that if people live their life according to the Bible, mind the lessons in it well and generally behave in a way it sets out then in theory everything is better, people treat each other right and dishonesty shouldn’t figure.

quaint for sure in this day and age but absolutely common sense when you think about it.

[Born Hunter 17,798]

45 minutes ago, WILF said:

I don’t think that American model has anything to do with trying to impose religion on the non religious, because I am thinking it could be easily seen that way.

I think that is a fair comment. It's as simple as this, the american people seem to value officials that are at the very least openly spiritual, it's part of the electorates criteria, whatever their individual reasons for that. That's fine, that's the will of the people. It therefore wouldn't be surprising if prospective and existing politicians put on a show of spirituality so as to not exclude themselves from the game. They aren't 'forced' as such to do that, they choose to because of electoral pressure, not legal pressure.

That said..... lol...... as CJ has pointed out, It's found its way into state law, BUT as I say has been judged unconstitutional (for good reason) by the SCOTUS. Which has the effect of nullifying those state laws, though only if you are willing to challenge them!

Edited April 4, 2018 by Born Hunter

[ChrisJones 7,975]

23 hours ago, WILF said:

I don’t think that American model has anything to do with trying to impose religion on the non religious, because I am thinking it could be easily seen that way.

The 1st amendment to the Constitution forbids Congress making any law respecting the establishment of religion. It also forbids preventing the free exercise of religion, or not, as the case may be.

States have the right to put such clauses in their state affairs but they are unconstitutional and generally there as symbolic rather than legal. Recently many states have made laws regarding religious freedoms and they've gone through many tweaks and adjustments so as not to be unconstitutional although they have yet to be tested by SCOTUS as they're comparatively new. A lot of knee-jerk laws came through when gay marriage was legalised federally and one woman even went to jail for refusing to issue a marriage license which was her job as a state employee.

[Blackbriar 8,569]

4 minutes ago, ChrisJones said:

The 1st amendment to the Constitution forbids Congress making any law respecting the establishment of religion. It also forbids preventing the free exercise of religion, or not, as the case may be.

States have the right to put such clauses in their state affairs but they are unconstitutional and generally there as symbolic rather than legal. Recently many states have made laws regarding religious freedoms and they've gone through many tweaks and adjustments so as not to be unconstitutional although they have yet to be tested by SCOTUS as they're comparatively new. A lot of knee-jerk laws came through when gay marriage was legalised federally and one woman even went to jail for refusing to issue a marriage license which was her job as a state employee.

Slight tangent, but are there not schools that do not teach evolutionary theory, but teach creationism as fact ?

[ChrisJones 7,975]

Just now, Blackbriar said:

Slight tangent, but are there not schools that do not teach evolutionary theory, but teach creationism as fact ?

Tennessee and Louisiana allow public money to teach creationism in schools although it's unclear how many actually do. It's legal by state law so that's 2 from 50.

Texas has a charter school program that allows it to be taught in their curriculum which receives tax-payer subsidies. It's like a voucher program that you can use to send your kids to certain schools. That's a technicality as these places are generally private education institutions.

Every other state where it's taught is done through private money only, as it should be.

[WILF 47,432]

Not wanting to turn it into a “bible” thread but my personal observation is that all decent systems follow what the Bible has been saying for a couple of thousand years.

if you take the founding principals of the USA, mutual respect of all, not bullying your will into others, self reliance and responsibility (a principal vaulted by libertarians everywhere), Everyman should be equal.

Theres nothing new in any of that......the Bible has been saying exactly that all the time.

love god & love each other to me translates to have a common bond of good principals and respect & look after your fellow citizens.

Indeed even welfare is a Bible principal, except when you take it out of the hands of the individual and give that responsibility to the state the act of kindness looses its meaning and potency.......it becomes a punishment and not a life affirming act.

As I say chaps, you don’t have to believe in god to believe in the Bible......as we have been propaganda-ed into rejecting our Christian bond so we have gotten weaker while the Muslim with his shared bond gets ever stronger.

As our culture degrades theirs seems to get ever stronger.

[WILF 47,432]

Phil Robertson makes an interesting point about electing American politicians (but you can translate it anywhere)

He says that when you throw out the Bible, the only bench mark that exists for everything good and moral go’s with it.

True godly men will be moral men and if you elect moral men then things become sane again.

I am aware that it doesn’t always follow, but the rule of thumb is valid imho 

[Born Hunter 17,798]

1 hour ago, WILF said:

Not wanting to turn it into a “bible” thread but my personal observation is that all decent systems follow what the Bible has been saying for a couple of thousand years.

if you take the founding principals of the USA, mutual respect of all, not bullying your will into others, self reliance and responsibility (a principal vaulted by libertarians everywhere), Everyman should be equal.

Theres nothing new in any of that......the Bible has been saying exactly that all the time.

love god & love each other to me translates to have a common bond of good principals and respect & look after your fellow citizens.

Indeed even welfare is a Bible principal, except when you take it out of the hands of the individual and give that responsibility to the state the act of kindness looses its meaning and potency.......it becomes a punishment and not a life affirming act.

As I say chaps, you don’t have to believe in god to believe in the Bible......as we have been propaganda-ed into rejecting our Christian bond so we have gotten weaker while the Muslim with his shared bond gets ever stronger.

As our culture degrades theirs seems to get ever stronger.

I don't see how what you are saying is any way problematic. Unless of course you think that those religious teachings should be forced into a countries, in this case the US', constitution/law. So are you saying that it's right that a state should be able to pass a law that bans atheists from holding office? In extension to that then surely it would also be right to ban atheism full stop?

It's perfectly fine for the religious beliefs of US officials, judges and lawmakers to be on the table for electoral pressure, they just can't and shouldn't be on the table for legal pressure. Thomas Jefferson was a wise man imo. His wisdom and those that prescribe to it don't just protect atheists and heathens either.

It's surely hard to resolve demanding society to follow a common religion so as to be unified and strong at the same time as wanting maximum individual freedom? The two just aren't compatible. It's pretty much the difference between a traditionalist conservative and a libertarian/classical liberal.

I don't believe for a moment that religion alone is the single binding cultural meme that holds a society together.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Born Hunter

[Born Hunter 17,798]

28 minutes ago, WILF said:

Phil Robertson makes an interesting point about electing American politicians (but you can translate it anywhere)

He says that when you throw out the Bible, the only bench mark that exists for everything good and moral go’s with it.

True godly men will be moral men and if you elect moral men then things become sane again.

I am aware that it doesn’t always follow, but the rule of thumb is valid imho 

I'm sorry mate, I'm sure that makes sense to you christian folk but to me it's just utter shite. I don't mean that disrespectfully. The bible is open to interpretation for a start and a f**k ton of godly men have committed terribly inhuman acts, sometimes in the name of divinity and sometimes irrespective of it. Every single individual with free will chooses their morals and actions. They can choose to follow a code written out for them or they can choose to follow an unwritten code taught to them from their elders and peers (society) or they can choose to make up whatever code, or lack of, they want. Point is everyone chooses, godly or not, morality is a choice!

Frankly if you really believe in divinity then you believe that judgement of a man is reserved for God only, so why have any laws or courts at all! Just let God sort all the wrong doing out. I'll see your Phil Robertson and raise you T.Jefferson:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Born Hunter

[Francie 6,368]

Have a look born mate at the correlation between the bible being took out of schools in america in the fifties, an being replaced by evoloution, an the crime rate drastically getting worse an worse, people will say its just coincidence, i wouldnt?

Apolagies for going off topic.

[Born Hunter 17,798]

Just now, Francie said:

Have a look born mate at the correlation between the bible being took out of schools in america in the fifties, an being replaced by evoloution, an the crime rate drastically getting worse an worse, people will say its just coincidence, i wouldnt?

Apolagies for going off topic.

What crime rate getting worse? Violent, property and total crime has been decreasing in america for nearly the last 30 years!

I guess that must mean there has been a marked increase in bibles in schools then? Ya know, to follow that correlation.... Or perhaps not recorded but actually a black market increase in undocumented bibles in schools! 

[WILF 47,432]

44 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

I don't see how what you are saying is any way problematic. Unless of course you think that those religious teachings should be forced into a countries, in this case the US', constitution/law. So are you saying that it's right that a state should be able to pass a law that bans atheists from holding office? In extension to that then surely it would also be right to ban atheism full stop?

It's perfectly fine for the religious beliefs of US officials, judges and lawmakers to be on the table for electoral pressure, they just can't and shouldn't be on the table for legal pressure. Thomas Jefferson was a wise man imo. His wisdom and those that prescribe to it don't just protect atheists and heathens either.

It's surely hard to resolve demanding society to follow a common religion so as to be unified and strong at the same time as wanting maximum individual freedom? The two just aren't compatible. It's pretty much the difference between a traditionalist conservative and a libertarian/classical liberal.

I don't believe for a moment that religion alone is the single binding cultural meme that holds a society together.

Rightly or wrongly, I think they are dong what they think they can to stop the rot.......I understand the hypocrisy in it but I think it’s for the right reasons.

I think they are saying we don’t want anybody who’s core beliefs don’t stem from this as near perfect set of guidelines as we are going to get.

Everything can and has been hijcked, I really believe that (believer or not) you have to take ownership of the Bible yourself.