How to improve recovery?

[billhardy 2,342]

3 hours ago, Navek said:

I hop3 your referring to your car and not suggesting they’re gibe there dogs antifreeze lol 

No lol the anti freeze does stop overheating in car the saluki does the same with the. Jukel when based bred.blowing and overheating a big problem when constantly slipping few breaks.just a drop of sal  blood does the trick recovery much improved or whippet keeps em cool. Atb bunnys

[sandymere 8,263]

If wanting to do repeats on ball  work etc, especially in warmer weather, then do so near water. I use the beach giving a couple of runs up the beach then one in the water, just the shallows, then beach again. The water helps keep them cool so they can continue much longer, without the water 5 or 6 runs after the ball will have a most dogs panting but with the dips continue until muscle are tired rather than just hot.

[skycat 6,173]

On 3/6/2018 at 09:27, Blackdog92 said:

Thanks skycat, is there anything you would recommend ie diet, different exercise’s I could be doing with the big dog to help him? He’s more of a racey type than muscular but is still a much more substantial dog than the whippet. 

You say he's running behind the quad for 4 or 5 miles a day: but is that loose, tearing back and forth as he wants? A dog may cover many more miles than you do, on bike or quad, if it's loose. One bloke I knew years ago regularly did 10 miles a day beside a bike with his Saluki lurchers. They weren't quite skin and bone, but he ran them very light. They were one paced dogs in the field, though ran forever. He coursed at least twice a week and ran the dogs beside the bike on the days they weren't coursing. Then he changed their routine: less biking, more top quality grub, put a bit of weight on them and their speed increased, they were no longer one paced and gained some gears. 

Sometimes we think we're doing the right thing by the dog when in reality we're actually asking it to do too much, or maybe too much tearing about and not enough slower work, for example. Sometimes it's a matter of just trying a different routine, and either increasing or decreasing certain components in the diet: less carbs, more fat, more protein, less carbs. Trial and error until you find the right balance. You can't feed all dogs in the same way: a Collie, as you know, will work all day like a demon, on a relatively poor diet. When you get a Greyhoundy sort they usually need much more protein to rebuilt muscle cells destroyed during hard exercise and work. Just a thought.

[sandymere 8,263]

I think I put this up across the way but might be of interest to some here.

Arleigh Reynolds, DVM, PhD, DACVN
Jill Cline, PhD
Performance dog feeding 

 

Most veterinarians have clients that participate with their in various sports or activities, and they may seek information on how to feed their active dogs appropriately. This article provides practical advice for the feeding of active
dogs, whether pulling a sled in Minnesota, chasing Frisbees in California, or chasing fox in Virginia.

Exercise intensity
The majority of performance dog nutrition research has been conducted using either endurance sled dogs or greyhounds as models. However, most performance dogs are neither. Instead, they are hunting dogs, service dogs, and working dogs that participate in a wide range of physical activities. Table 1 lists different canine athletic activities and their level of intensity. Exercise intensity is usually discussed in terms of VO2 or workload. VO2 is a measure of oxygen consumption that indicates workload or exercise intensity and VO2 max is the amount of oxygen consumed when exercising at maximum intensity1. Since VO2 max can be increased by conditioning, references to VO2 max throughout this article refer to a fully conditioned dog.

Exercise can be loosely divided into three categories based on VO2 max. High intensity exercise is greater than 75% VO2 max and uses anaerobic fuel sources, primarily phosphocreatine, muscle glycogen and carbohydrates. Moderate intensity exercise occurs between 30-50% VO2 max and is primarily aerobic in nature, including the aerobic metabolism of both carbohydrates and free fatty acids (FFA), and small amounts of protein. Finally, low intensity exercise is exercise up to 30% VO2 max and is completely aerobic in nature, utilizing primarily free fatty acids for fuel1.

Endurance Canine Athletes
Table 2 summarizes the feeding recommendations for canine endurance athletes. Canine endurance athletes, like sled dogs, typically exercise for an extended time period in the low intensity (up to 30% VO2 max) and moderate intensity (30-50% VO2 max) range with very short bouts of high intensity going up a hill or at the finish of a race. Therefore, the primary fuel for canine endurance athletes is free fatty acids. Dogs are more efficient at metabolism fat than most other species2. Further, through a combination of training and diet, there can be an increase in the amount of circulating FFA available for use as an energy substrate1. Muscle FFA can contribute up to 60% of energy during the first 2-3 hours of exercise 3.

An appropriate feeding regime for endurance sled dogs includes approximately 35% of calories from protein, 45% calories from fat and 20% of calories from carbohydrates. However, these are estimates and all dogs should be fed to maintain appropriate body condition for the sport in which they are participating. Sled dogs exercising at low to moderate intensity with short bouts of high intensity work need a minimum of 24% of calories from protein in the diet to prevent soft tissue injury4. Dogs fed 16% protein, as a percent of calories, had more soft tissue injuries, which required that they be removed from the exercise rotation for at least three days4.

Canine endurance athletes have a tremendous requirement for energy. Working sled dogs calorie requirements can range up to 6,000-10,000 kilocalories/day depending on environmental condition, exercise intensity and duration1. Daily energy requirements are usually greater than 5X resting energy rate. High dietary energy density is key to these canine athletes. Since fat has about 2.25 times more energy than either protein or carbohydrate per gram, high fat diets help meet the energy needs of canine endurance athletes. Small amounts of dietary carbohydrate are useful in stabilizing gut motility in endurance canine athletes. Sled dogs fed diets without carbohydrate were more susceptible to “stress” diarrhea than those that had 17 % carbohydrate in their diets5.

Long distance endurance events cause an increase in lipid peroxidation and free radical production. The extremely high fat diets required by endurance sled dogs can exacerbate this phenomena so increased antioxidants like vitamin E and selenium have been recommended to help minimize the effects of free radicals1.

Sprint/ Weight Pulling Canine Athletes
Dogs involved in sprinting and weight pulling activities such as sight hound racing or sledge pulling competitions undergo short periods of very intense exercise. These types of dogs typically do not have higher energy requirements than those of moderately active pet dogs. A greyhound expends approximately 75 kcal per race6. The energy required for these types of activities is solely anaerobic and comes from the muscle energy stores. Most canine athletes engaged in sprint type activities have an energy requirement of 1.6-2 X resting energy rate1. An appropriate feeding regime for sprint type canine athletes consists of a diet that contains approximately 25% calories from protein, 30% calories from fat and 45% calories from carbohydrates (Table 2).

Greyhounds can deplete up to 70% of their muscle glycogen during a race7. However, it seems that “carb loading” as described for humans does not benefit these canine athletes8. Hill et al demonstrated that greyhounds ran faster when carbohydrate was increased from 30 to 45% ME at the expense of protein but they ran slower when fed 54% carbohydrates at the expense of protein and fat9.

While vitamins E and C provide protection against oxidative damage, they do not appear to enhance racing performance. On the contrary, super-supplementation with these antioxidant vitamins actually slowed greyhounds10. However, many racing dogs are fed raw meat or fish in addition to a complete and balanced dog food. Raw meats and fish, which can be high in PUFA, are susceptible to oxidation. Therefore, the amount of vitamin E included in the diet should be proportional to the fat levels in the diet11.

Intermediate Canine Athletes
Most canine athletes fall into the nebulous category of “intermediate” exercise intensity. Some dogs are “weekend warriors” for example, the family retriever who does double duty as the duck retrieving dog on the weekend. These dogs exercise hard, and sometimes for many hours on the weekends but do not exercise during the week. Other canine athletes exercise more regularly like military or service dogs.

Table 1 list a few of the activities in which dogs may participate. There may be short bursts of intense activity, like running up a hill or sprinting after a bird in the case of a hunting dog or completing an agility course, but the majority of intermediate canine athletes exercise at an intensity well below 75% VO2 max. Therefore, the exercise of these intermediate athletes more closely resembles endurance exercise rather than sprint exercise.

A recent survey of fox hound hunting clubs reported that formal hunts last from 2-6 hours and the average distance covered was between 8-10 miles but could range up to 20 miles 12. Intermediate athletes can be subdivided into two categories- those who exercise at a low-moderate frequency and duration and those who exercise at a higher duration and frequency. Table 2 details nutrient requirements for intermediate canine athletes. In general, canine intermediate athletes require at least 25% of calories as protein. Protein requirements increase in relation to increased work1. Exercise causes an increased need for structural proteins (muscle, collagen) and functional proteins (enzymes) 1. As exercise frequency increases through continued work or training, the enzymes for energy metabolism are up-regulated, requiring more protein13. In addition, blood volume increases with continued aerobic exercise and there is a concomitant increase in plasma volume that requires additional protein14. Thus there is an enhanced rate of protein synthesis associated with regular exercise. There is also an enhanced rate of protein catabolism. Branch chain amino acids, leucine, isoleucine and valine, are oxidized for energy, contributing between 5-15% of the energy used during aerobic exercise15. Since there are no labile stores of protein in the body, essential amino acids must be replaced through diet.

Physical activity necessitates an increase in metabolism, which in turn increases the need for energy. Fat is the most energy dense nutrient available to fulfill this need. Training in conjunction with higher fat diets has been shown to increase a dog’s capacity for using FFA by raising a dog’s carbohydrate threshold1. The carbohydrate threshold is the point at which dogs switch from aerobic FFA metabolism to aerobic carbohydrate metabolism. During moderately intense work, both FFA and carbohydrates are metabolized for energy. Feeding a high fat diet during training causes a shift in metabolism that elevates the threshold at which dog’s switch from FFA metabolism to carbohydrate metabolism. The advantage to this change is twofold. Fats have more energy per gram so each gram oxidized nets more fuel for exercise than carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are available in very limited supply in the body therefore sparing them is beneficial. Also, by feeding a higher fat diet during regular exercise, the amount of circulating FFA increases, providing a readily available energy source. Working dogs consuming higher fat diets respond to an exercise bout by releasing more FFA than dogs fed an isocaloric diet of lower fat content14. Finally, increased fat in a balanced diet has been shown to increase the maximal rate of fat oxidation by 20-30 % in dogs exercised at a moderate intensity (less than 75% VO2 max) which leads to an increased oxidative capacity16.

On the other hand, canine athletes in this category also may have short periods of more intense activity, requiring them to utilize muscle glycogen for energy. Appropriate feeding of carbohydrates can aid in maintaining and restoring muscle glycogen, as described elsewhere in this issue.

Like endurance dogs, intermediate canine athletes are susceptible to lipid peroxidation of membranes. Diets with extra antioxidants like vitamins E and C, and selenium would help to minimize excessive free radical production especially when dogs are consuming higher fat diets 13.

Practical Feeding Management of Intermediate Canine Athletes
As important as the nutrients to canine athletes are the feeding practices that are used to manage the delivery of those nutrients. Three things need to be considered when managing food intake in canine athletes- diet digestibility, hydration and feeding time.

Intermediate canine athletes can vary in energy requirements depending on the sport in which they are participating, the environmental conditions and the frequency of exercise. However, diet digestibility should be at least % in order for the dogs to effectively metabolize and use the nutrients supplied by the food without excess fecal bulk and for them to be able to ingest enough calories to meet energy needs while in training and competing in athletic events1. The more energy dense the food is, the less voluminous the stool, which is advantageous in exercising dogs. Kronfeld et al estimated that racing sled dogs with full colons were handicapped equivalent to a jockey and racehorse being assessed a 20 lb handicap5.

Hydration is important in exercising dogs for two reasons. Exercise is a heat producing activity and water is required to help dissipate heat. Work by Young demonstrated that about 60% of heat dissipated by dogs during exercise is through water evaporation in the respiratory tract17. Also, water is needed to remove the by-products of energy metabolism. It is very important to keep exercising dogs hydrated because this may be the most important determinant of endurance and performance1. Yet, in many cases, exercising dogs may be distracted by their task or the environment so are not motivated to drink. Specific care should be provided to encourage dogs to drink during extended periods of exercise. . Unlike humans, most dogs do not loose electrolytes during exercise because sweat is not a primary avenue for thermoregulation for dogs. Because most healthy dogs do not lose electrolytes, they do not benefit from electrolyte replacement drinks.
Summary
In summary, athletic dogs generally require more energy, protein and antioxidants than sedentary dogs. The extra nutrients required are directly related to the exercise intensity, frequency and duration. Most dogs that participate in canine athletic events are considered intermediate athletes who use a combination of aerobic and naerobic fuels. Though most of the research on the nutrient requirements of exercising dogs has been completed using either greyhounds or sled dogs, recommendations can still be drawn from this work and applied to intermediate canine athletes. Feeding management practices, including diet digestibility, hydration, and timing of feeding, are vitally important to canine athletes and can directly affect canine athletic performance.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lance82 131]

On 6 March 2018 at 09:06, skycat said:

It's not just the weight difference, though that does play a part. A heavily-muscled lump of a dog with a lot of Greyhound in it generates a lot more heat when it runs, and must take correspondingly longer to cool down afterwards, whereas a light Whippety type cools down much faster. Add to that the extra amount of work the big dog has to do to run fast: big engines take more torque to move from standing to flat out, and that goes some way to explaining why the big dog takes longer to recover. 

And there's stamina to consider as well. Greyhounds were never bred to run the distances that Whippets and lurchers can. They're a bit like cheetahs: run flat out for a short distance then have to stop to refuel the body with oxygen which 'feeds' the muscles. The cardio vascular system in a distance runner is quite different: like comparing a rabbit to a hare, where the hare has a much larger heart in comparison to the rabbit in order to send masses of blood around the body to enable it to keep running for longer. 

Then you have the different muscle types as well: fast twitch and slow twitch. Fast twitch gives an explosion of power at the outset, slow twitch keeps going for longer, much more resistant to fatigue. Sprinters, in humans, are always powerfully built, unlike marathon runners who look like weeds in comparison. Dogs are no different in that respect> think Saluki for marathons, Greyhounds for sprints, and Whippets somewhere in between.

Excellent explanation of the topic. 

[sandymere 8,263]

On 3/6/2018 at 09:06, skycat said:

It's not just the weight difference, though that does play a part. A heavily-muscled lump of a dog with a lot of Greyhound in it generates a lot more heat when it runs, and must take correspondingly longer to cool down afterwards, whereas a light Whippety type cools down much faster. Add to that the extra amount of work the big dog has to do to run fast: big engines take more torque to move from standing to flat out, and that goes some way to explaining why the big dog takes longer to recover. 

And there's stamina to consider as well. Greyhounds were never bred to run the distances that Whippets and lurchers can. They're a bit like cheetahs: run flat out for a short distance then have to stop to refuel the body with oxygen which 'feeds' the muscles. The cardio vascular system in a distance runner is quite different: like comparing a rabbit to a hare, where the hare has a much larger heart in comparison to the rabbit in order to send masses of blood around the body to enable it to keep running for longer. 

Then you have the different muscle types as well: fast twitch and slow twitch. Fast twitch gives an explosion of power at the outset, slow twitch keeps going for longer, much more resistant to fatigue. Sprinters, in humans, are always powerfully built, unlike marathon runners who look like weeds in comparison. Dogs are no different in that respect> think Saluki for marathons, Greyhounds for sprints, and Whippets somewhere in between.

Good reply, mine from across the way is dull in comparison.

"Heat is one major problem with big muscles, energy expenditure creates heat and the bigger the muscle the more heat is created and the slower it is released, so a heavier dog will take longer to recover.

The next will be varience in energy expenditure, ie a faster dog, having more fast twitch muscle fibres will create more heat than a slower dog so a faster dog will take longer to recover.

As an aside, lactic acid  increases muscle contraction so enhances rather than slows muscles, its good.

 As XXXXX says conditioned dogs recover faster.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29322250

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15131240"

EDIT to add

Ps as an aside I find a few people are using the whippet as an example of an intermediate type and I've always considered them out and out sprinters bred to race over pretty short distances compared to staying bred greyhounds.

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by sandymere

[billhardy 2,342]

Whippets are great addition and there lung heart cardio size structure in comparission of weight muscle definition has a lot to said for some of us new this forty yrs ago it's nothing knew they were used fa the very reason of recovery some of the non ped have excellent recovery and they have grey added every other generation for many generations so would this be a wee bit of hybrid vigour coming in to play I think so in fact I believe this there's very little if any difference in recovery or stamina with race bred and show breeds other than the former are far far faster.old news now being recognised for what it his.atb bunnys

[shaaark 10,892]

18 hours ago, billhardy said:

Whippets are great addition and there lung heart cardio size structure in comparission of weight muscle definition has a lot to said for some of us new this forty yrs ago it's nothing knew they were used fa the very reason of recovery some of the non ped have excellent recovery and they have grey added every other generation for many generations so would this be a wee bit of hybrid vigour coming in to play I think so in fact I believe this there's very little if any difference in recovery or stamina with race bred and show breeds other than the former are far far faster.old news now being recognised for what it his.atb bunnys

Kin el, twice now I'm agreeing with you! Lol.  Been saying the same thing for years, whippets add alot to a lurcher

[sandymere 8,263]

21 hours ago, billhardy said:

Whippets are great addition and there lung heart cardio size structure in comparission of weight muscle definition has a lot to said for some of us new this forty yrs ago it's nothing knew they were used fa the very reason of recovery some of the non ped have excellent recovery and they have grey added every other generation for many generations so would this be a wee bit of hybrid vigour coming in to play I think so in fact I believe this there's very little if any difference in recovery or stamina with race bred and show breeds other than the former are far far faster.old news now being recognised for what it his.atb bunnys

Whippets can make good rabbit dogs and the small body mass will allow quicker cooling but on longer runs they lack a little to much in the stamina department for me. More than a quarter  in a lurcher is to much for my tastes but each to their own.

[billhardy 2,342]

3 hours ago, sandymere said:

Whippets can make good rabbit dogs and the small body mass will allow quicker cooling but on longer runs they lack a little to much in the stamina department for me. More than a quarter  in a lurcher is to much for my tastes but each to their own.

You obviously ain't got much experience of whippets they can be far more than just wee rabbit dogs fact no ones asking yas preference of type ,you kept greyhounds a very different animal than a whippet but fa me for inferior and that would not be fa a quarter either far better animals these days than greyhound to be making lurchers from whippets the best small hound version on the planet simple.and surprisingly they are capable of eats well above size and weights would expect. Oh that his first hand experience not science waffle what would you call a long run seven minutes three minutes  they can look an age and be a mere two whippets are capable of and in some cases more in baking heat which means they are allready a cool animal much in the same has a saluki but less extensive through evolution terms saluki environment whippet evolutionary environment..get ya self a hip pet they come in all shapes and sizes and surprisingly performance Neva judge a breed u less one has knowledge on the full spectrum of them  it would be like saying all Salukis are plodders and all greyhound are fast, but that just ain't true variables in all I have seen whippets slower off the mark than staffs over twenty paces  but loads a top end and stamina what yas rynning now a greyhound lol .atb bunnys

[nothernlite 18,089]

13 hours ago, shaaark said:

Kin el, twice now I'm agreeing with you! Lol.  Been saying the same thing for years, whippets add alot to a lurcher

Great we dogs and as you say add plenty to a lurcher 

[shaaark 10,892]

14 hours ago, billhardy said:

You obviously ain't got much experience of whippets they can be far more than just wee rabbit dogs fact no ones asking yas preference of type ,you kept greyhounds a very different animal than a whippet but fa me for inferior and that would not be fa a quarter either far better animals these days than greyhound to be making lurchers from whippets the best small hound version on the planet simple.and surprisingly they are capable of eats well above size and weights would expect. Oh that his first hand experience not science waffle what would you call a long run seven minutes three minutes  they can look an age and be a mere two whippets are capable of and in some cases more in baking heat which means they are allready a cool animal much in the same has a saluki but less extensive through evolution terms saluki environment whippet evolutionary environment..get ya self a hip pet they come in all shapes and sizes and surprisingly performance Neva judge a breed u less one has knowledge on the full spectrum of them  it would be like saying all Salukis are plodders and all greyhound are fast, but that just ain't true variables in all I have seen whippets slower off the mark than staffs over twenty paces  but loads a top end and stamina what yas rynning now a greyhound lol .atb bunnys

Well swipe me sideways! 3rd time in a row I'm agreeing with you lol.  Don't know how to paste and copy stuff, or whatever it's called, so I'll just repeat the line you've just written, and what I've been saying for years.  'Best small hound version on the planet'

[MikeyMJL 128]

I’m no expert by any means, but my beddy whippets stamina and recovery between runs has been greatly improved by hill sprints. I try to do it at least twice a week on a bloody steep bank, halfway through a 5 mike walk. He weighs 25lbs, I made a weighted chain collar starting at 1/2lb, once I built up the sprints I increased it to 1 lb. 

Very happy with his running lately for a little dog, also feel it’s made him very explosive from stand still. 

[nothernlite 18,089]

38 minutes ago, MikeyMJL said:

I’m no expert by any means, but my beddy whippets stamina and recovery between runs has been greatly improved by hill sprints. I try to do it at least twice a week on a bloody steep bank, halfway through a 5 mike walk. He weighs 25lbs, I made a weighted chain collar starting at 1/2lb, once I built up the sprints I increased it to 1 lb. 

Very happy with his running lately for a little dog, also feel it’s made him very explosive from stand still. 

Well done it's a true saying you get back what you put in 

[green lurchers 16,730]

The ped whip on the left bred from old coursing moonlake  lines stays fore ever  with great recovery the non ped on the right bred from very good non ped racer lines has unbelievable early pace  great to watch both run . with whips you can’t generalise when you see a good few run some surprise