Brexit Thread Redux

[JohnGalway 1,043]

Ming, the peoples champion, lol.

I asked Ming a simple question, well over a year ago.

I asked him "if" he was in favour of leaving the EU, as I didn't wish to assume his position, how then with the subsequent loss of CAP funding does he aspire to fund small and low income farmers? I asked if he was of the view that reclaiming Irish fishing grounds would make up for this shortfall? I asked, given (and he and his advisors know the following to be fact) MY deep and involved understanding of how Dublin would like to treat those same small and low income farmers, would he be comfortable with civil servants in Dublin, the Department of Agriculture, the IFA, and Fine Gael having 100% control of small and low income farmers incomes and no longer having Brussels as a lever against those Dublin centered policies.

I sent the question in written format.

I have, on several occasions reminded him the question is still outstanding.

I have yet to receive reply.

I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Edited March 18, 2018 by JohnGalway

[WILF 47,301]

1 hour ago, JohnGalway said:

Ming, the peoples champion, lol.

I asked Ming a simple question, well over a year ago.

I asked him "if" he was in favour of leaving the EU, as I didn't wish to assume his position, how then with the subsequent loss of CAP funding does he aspire to fund small and low income farmers? I asked if he was of the view that reclaiming Irish fishing grounds would make up for this shortfall? I asked, given (and he and his advisors know the following to be fact) MY deep and involved understanding of how Dublin would like to treat those same small and low income farmers, would he be comfortable with civil servants in Dublin, the Department of Agriculture, the IFA, and Fine Gael having 100% control of small and low income farmers incomes and no longer having Brussels as a lever against those Dublin centered policies.

I sent the question in written format.

I have, on several occasions reminded him the question is still outstanding.

I have yet to receive reply.

I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

You seem very educated on these matters John, so I will ask you a question.

If the EU all ended tomorrow, how do you think farmers could survive without being subsidised?

What would you do to carry on ?

Theroretical question I know, but let’s just say it happened. 

I mean you mention “government having control of your incomes”.........surely it’s your customers, the quality of product, your marketing, demand and your business system (minimising expenses etc) that control your income?

In the model as you describe it, you would simply be swapping one master for another surely? 

Edited March 18, 2018 by WILF

[JohnGalway 1,043]

5 minutes ago, WILF said:

You seem very educated on these matters John, so I will ask you a question.

If the EU all ended tomorrow, how do you think farmers could survive without being subsidised?

What would you do to carry on ?

Theroretical question I know, but let’s just say it happened. 

It's a difficult question to answer because within farming there are many sectors, within the sectors there are many different variables in terms of farm resources, labour, borrowings, cost of system, second income, spouse working etc. The majority would fail IMO.

If I had an alternative today I wouldn't be farming tomorrow, EU or no EU.

[WILF 47,301]

1 minute ago, JohnGalway said:

It's a difficult question to answer because within farming there are many sectors, within the sectors there are many different variables in terms of farm resources, labour, borrowings, cost of system, second income, spouse working etc. The majority would fail IMO.

If I had an alternative today I wouldn't be farming tomorrow, EU or no EU.

But you would be farming if you were able to get the RIGHT money for your product surely?

Without subsidised markets (aimed imho at diverting consumer income in other directions) people would have to pay the right money for food?

The split of household income today in terms of what households spend on food is about what?.....10% compared to about 50% years ago?

That difference has been purposely diverted using tax payers money to built a model where farmers have to rely on handouts?

jmho 

[JohnGalway 1,043]

16 minutes ago, WILF said:

I mean you mention “government having control of your incomes”.........surely it’s your customers, the quality of product, your marketing, demand and your business system (minimising expenses etc) that control your income?

In the model as you describe it, you would simply be swapping one master for another surely? 

No.

"Customers" in agriculture are mainly factories for livestock or factory buyers/other farmers at marts. In dairying you have creameries. Tillage I am not so well up on. So you are selling to companies. Middlemen. Who then sell on to supermarkets etc, then to the consumer.

I have often seen direct sales being tried out, inevitably there is a lack of reliable customer, too great a distance from population, distribution too time consuming, costs high.

CAP is there to do many things, control the price of food, provide public goods etc. However it does not control the price of inputs nor does it do anything to control the cartels that buy output.

There is no master, if you're you're going with this terminology I'm out.

[JohnGalway 1,043]

5 minutes ago, WILF said:

But you would be farming if you were able to get the RIGHT money for your product surely?

Without subsidised markets (aimed imho at diverting consumer income in other directions) people would have to pay the right money for food?

The split of household income today in terms of what households spend on food is about what?.....10% compared to about 50% years ago?

That difference has been purposely diverted using tax payers money to built a model where farmers have to rely on handouts?

jmho 

Wont ever happen.

The world has changed where the economies of scale mean industrial farming around the globe can squash indigenous farms in countries with higher input costs.

The attempt of the Brexiteer to turn the clock back is probably the biggest delusion. 

[WILF 47,301]

2 minutes ago, JohnGalway said:

No.

"Customers" in agriculture are mainly factories for livestock or factory buyers/other farmers at marts. In dairying you have creameries. Tillage I am not so well up on. So you are selling to companies. Middlemen. Who then sell on to supermarkets etc, then to the consumer.

I have often seen direct sales being tried out, inevitably there is a lack of reliable customer, too great a distance from population, distribution too time consuming, costs high.

CAP is there to do many things, control the price of food, provide public goods etc. However it does not control the price of inputs nor does it do anything to control the cartels that buy output.

There is no master, if you're you're going with this terminology I'm out.

Sorry, it’s was a figure of speech.....some form of control may have been a better way of putting it.

[JohnGalway 1,043]

3 minutes ago, WILF said:

Sorry, it’s was a figure of speech.....some form of control may have been a better way of putting it.

Govt is in the control business, all Govts.

[WILF 47,301]

2 minutes ago, JohnGalway said:

Wont ever happen.

The world has changed where the economies of scale mean industrial farming around the globe can squash indigenous farms in countries with higher input costs.

The attempt of the Brexiteer to turn the clock back is probably the biggest delusion. 

But that’s just the same as any other business has to compete with surely?

The big buy up the small, some small find niches and so on and so forth?

[JohnGalway 1,043]

1 minute ago, WILF said:

But that’s just the same as any other business has to compete with surely?

The big buy up the small, some small find niches and so on and so forth?

It's down to the consumer. They want X but they buy Y, complain about the effect and are too lazy to educate themselves.

They want nice countryside, good standards but buy the cheapest going in favour of smartphone or holiday.

When proper industrial farming comes here, they can look in the mirror.

[WILF 47,301]

1 minute ago, JohnGalway said:

It's down to the consumer. They want X but they buy Y, complain about the effect and are too lazy to educate themselves.

They want nice countryside, good standards but buy the cheapest going in favour of smartphone or holiday.

When proper industrial farming comes here, they can look in the mirror.

And I would argue that the consumer you describe has been nurtured and cultivated by globalist organisation like the EU using tax revenue and it’s just plain wrong.

What you are putting in your mouth has more importance than what you are putting to your ear imho.

I won’t use the word Brexit, I will use the word independence and I would say not all of us who value independence and see it as worthy are looking to turn back clocks.......we just feel that what we are seeing isnt right and are willing to pay the price to put it right.

I think that you as a farmer should be getting the RIGHT money for a high quality product and if that means I don’t get the latest phone then that’s fine by me.

I don’t know the first thing about the intricacys of farming, I have a little place of only 14 acres and I feed a family of 6 off of 7 of those.

I don’t sell a thing BUT I know if people tatsted just the pork I rear for myself they would never touch another bit of factory system dry pork from the supermarket.

As it stand, my pork is worthless (not that I would sell any) because it would never compete with susbsidised meat.

BUT the point is......it should shouldn’t it? 

 

[JohnGalway 1,043]

3 minutes ago, WILF said:

And I would argue that the consumer you describe has been nurtured and cultivated by globalist organisation like the EU using tax revenue and it’s just plain wrong.

What you are putting in your mouth has more importance than what you are putting to your ear imho.

I won’t use the word Brexit, I will use the word independence and I would say not all of us who value independence and see it as worthy are looking to turn back clocks.......we just feel that what we are seeing isnt right and are willing to pay the price to put it right.

I think that you as a farmer should be getting the RIGHT money for a high quality product and if that means I don’t get the latest phone then that’s fine by me.

I don’t know the first thing about the intricacys of farming, I have a little place of only 14 acres and I feed a family of 6 off of 7 of those.

I don’t sell a thing BUT I know if people tatsted just the pork I rear for myself they would never touch another bit of factory system dry pork from the supermarket.

As it stand, my pork is worthless (not that I would sell any) because it would never compete with susbsidised meat.

BUT the point is......it should shouldn’t it? 

 

The consumer has free will and freedom of choice. Farmers markets etc are readily available (in most towns and all cities) alternatives to supermarkets. Nutritional information is available from a myriad of sources, who doesn't have internet now.

They chose to buy cheap, this is the point. It's in your post with the % difference on food spend over the decades.

Taste is great, price is king.

[WILF 47,301]

Price is king under the current systems......my argument is, for food, It dose not have to be that way........should never have been that way........and could be a different way.

Cheap credit to spend on shite in order to control the masses is what I beleive we are seeing.......people are weak and they have bought into the model, the virtues of it are pounded into their brain every day and have been for 40 years.

All your independence supporters are saying is “stop” 

 

[JohnGalway 1,043]

Food is a commodity, that's the reality.

People won't stop being weak.

One cannot save them that don't wish to be saved.

Let them eat cake. I'm in it for the €

[WILF 47,301]

1 hour ago, JohnGalway said:

Food is a commodity, that's the reality.

People won't stop being weak.

One cannot save them that don't wish to be saved.

Let them eat cake. I'm in it for the €

Fair enough, you are not alone mate.

Theres millions that would rather trade their own and everyone else’s freedom for a few quid......

I like to take a kinder view, I say most people don’t have the time to think about it, they can’t afford the time what with having to pay gargantuan amounts to governments to help keep the system going.

I have said all along, I never worried or thought about the cost.....the sun will always rise.

Britain as a people have the form historically to be OK.

Changing the subject, did you see the programme about the effect of independence will have on the Irish beef industry? 

Do you think Varadkar will get the reward from the EU for being the stick to hit Britain with?......or will Varadkar get a nice job in Brussels and Ireland get dropped like a stone ?

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by WILF