Who You Voting

[neems 2,406]

  On 07/06/2017 at 10:38, Born Hunter said:

 

  On 07/06/2017 at 10:24, neems said:

 

  On 07/06/2017 at 09:45, Born Hunter said:

 

 

 

Of course they should aim to gain power and influence,what's the point otherwise?

That's why compromise is necessary at times,the only other option as far as I can see was to fade into obscurity.

 

I was just curious to hear what other options there were in your opinion.

 

 

I don't really understand why we're discussing party strategy when I made a comment on personal politics? UKIP have moved away from me, so they have less appeal to me, much like all the other parties. I'm not saying they shouldn't have done! LOL.

 

I'm not moving to the centre ground just so I can have a jolly with everyone else. Therefore they have less in common with me. That isn't a comment on their strategy or even my strategy.

 

 

Because they're trying to make ground in a realistically achievable way.

Labour voters don't throw their teddy at the first diversion from their own personal ideals,that's the only reason they're relevant and can have any baring on the political narrative.

 

This lack of patience is the problem with people on both the political and economic right imo.

 

A perfect example is when Griffin allowed non-whites to join the BNP (which he had to by law) a lot of members sperged out and went over to the already lost cause that is the NF.

By doing that they took themselves,their voices,energy and money out of the equation.

 

There's no point in trying to enact massive change from a weak position,step 1 is to gain mass electoral support,it has to be a gradual process.

The left realise this.

[Born Hunter 17,820]

This ain't my first BBQ neems mate, I understand Political Strategy 101 - Occupy the Centre Ground.

 

That doesn't change the fact that UKIP do not appeal to me as much since they started chasing the workers rights vote that Old Labour centred themselves on and have a stronger populist stance.

 

All these 3rd, 4th and 5th place parties do is act as pressure groups anyway. They help shape the two parties at the top and now UKIP as the ironically right-wing pressure group are likely to push the Tories left economically and also more authoritarian. So at some point their effect on British politics is going to have a negative effect based on what I want and they've moved closer to that point, for me personally. I can't decide whether or not they're there yet but the whole decision is made easier by the fact that my Tory MP is the most Europhile in the party.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Born Hunter

[neems 2,406]

  On 07/06/2017 at 11:46, Born Hunter said:

This ain't my first BBQ neems mate, I understand Political Strategy 101 - Occupy the Centre Ground.

 

That doesn't change the fact that UKIP do not appeal to me as much since they started chasing the workers rights vote that Old Labour centred themselves on and have a stronger populist stance.

 

All these 3rd, 4th and 5th place parties do is act as pressure groups anyway. They help shape the two parties at the top and now UKIP as the ironically right-wing pressure group are likely to push the Tories left economically and also more authoritarian. So at some point their effect on British politics is going to have a negative effect based on what I want and they've moved closer to that point, for me personally. I can't decide whether or not they're there yet but the whole decision is made easier by the fact that my Tory MP is the most Europhile in the party.

 

They're certainly moving further right in the traditional/political sense,the worker's rights issue is a natural progression for a large % of their voter base.

 

You may be right that they'll push the conservatives to be more authoritarian at some point,but i actually don't see that as being possible with emperor Palpatine at the helm of of the cons.

 

My original question was do you think they could have gone another direction?

The only other way they could have gone since article 50 was triggered is to have become more libertarian,and there's no appetite for that in the UK,though I might be some other avenue they had available,hence the question.

[Born Hunter 17,820]

  On 07/06/2017 at 12:11, neems said:

 

  On 07/06/2017 at 11:46, Born Hunter said:

This ain't my first BBQ neems mate, I understand Political Strategy 101 - Occupy the Centre Ground.

 

That doesn't change the fact that UKIP do not appeal to me as much since they started chasing the workers rights vote that Old Labour centred themselves on and have a stronger populist stance.

 

All these 3rd, 4th and 5th place parties do is act as pressure groups anyway. They help shape the two parties at the top and now UKIP as the ironically right-wing pressure group are likely to push the Tories left economically and also more authoritarian. So at some point their effect on British politics is going to have a negative effect based on what I want and they've moved closer to that point, for me personally. I can't decide whether or not they're there yet but the whole decision is made easier by the fact that my Tory MP is the most Europhile in the party.

 

They're certainly moving further right in the traditional/political sense,the worker's rights issue is a natural progression for a large % of their voter base.

 

You may be right that they'll push the conservatives to be more authoritarian at some point,but i actually don't see that as being possible with emperor Palpatine at the helm of of the cons.

 

My original question was do you think they could have gone another direction?

The only other way they could have gone since article 50 was triggered is to have become more libertarian,and there's no appetite for that in the UK,though I might be some other avenue they had available,hence the question.

 

 

They did what they had to. I don't deny that. They left behind a few to gain many. They either sold out on some of their policies or the balance of power changed within gaining greater electoral support. As a mere voter, I'm in no place to justify their strategy, that's up to them. I see the value of some policies different to them so I wouldn't have moved. There are some things that you don't budge on, that's just principle. But yeah, it's given them more sway.

 

Right and Left is too simple in this general case. Yes they've moved right in the social sense, but also more authoritarian and left in the economic. In all three of those cases it's generally away from me. I'd probably be quite comfortable in a New UKIP society, lol, but that's the difference between political views and personal views. eg I'm not all matey with the LGBT mob but I believe they should have the freedom (importantly not the right!) to crack on. So a socially conservative society wouldn't really affect me at all, I roughly fit that look, but politically I'm not fully on board.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Born Hunter

[neems 2,406]

I think it's that lack of flexibility,and willingness to concede some ground to make up later that is the downfall of the right,but particularly the libertarian,free market type of people.

A lot of them are highly autistic and as a result,they haven't and won't make any ground imo.

 

Is it not the case that you have right wing ideologues jumping ship time and again,trying to find something that unwaveringly fits their ideals,goes nowhere and achieves nothing?

 

If they actually seen things through they would make ground,look at the amount of prominent leftists who make no bones about their support of communism and even Bolshevik mass murderers,they selectively and progressively push their ideology.

 

My theory is the mainstream has caught up with the LARPers (antifa etc) on the left,and that couldn't have all happened without progression.

[Born Hunter 17,820]

Not quite sure I'm in agreement with your fractured Right theory. In the UK there are only two significant parties considered generally right of centre. There are loads on the Left!

 

I have no idea whether the economic libertarians are highly autistic. Most seem to be highly motivated independent businessmen imo who just want the regulations on success removed.

 

It's got nothing to do with finding a perfect minarchist libertarian party with a perfect shade of protectionist nationalism. Democracy doesn't offer perfection, it offers an average fit. You are where you are and you vote for who you have to to achieve what you think is best.

 

The only chance UKIP have of joining tier one of the two party state is if Labour completely self destruct and their social Left vote base suddenly drop their hatred of the "milk snatching" Tories and predominantly join them. I can't see the Tories becoming the social Left in that top tier even in the case of a Labour self destruct. I'd imagine the Lib Dems or a Labour offshoot would take that place. So to be perfectly honest, following your theory, it's voting UKIP that fractures the Right! LOL

 

I think the problem we have here neems is that I'm really not Right-wing by your ultra-con/alt-right view.

[ftm 3,357]

well I wasnt going to vote [1st time in my adult life] but if it keeps labour out im willing to put my x on a tory vote as I hate corbyn and his monkey with a passion

[neems 2,406]

  On 07/06/2017 at 14:14, Born Hunter said:

Not quite sure I'm in agreement with your fractured Right theory. In the UK there are only two significant parties considered generally right of centre. There are loads on the Left!

 

I have no idea whether the economic libertarians are highly autistic. Most seem to be highly motivated independent businessmen imo who just want the regulations on success removed.

 

It's got nothing to do with finding a perfect minarchist libertarian party with a perfect shade of protectionist nationalism. Democracy doesn't offer perfection, it offers an average fit. You are where you are and you vote for who you have to to achieve what you think is best.

 

The only chance UKIP have of joining tier one of the two party state is if Labour completely self destruct and their social Left vote base suddenly drop their hatred of the "milk snatching" Tories and predominantly join them. I can't see the Tories becoming the social Left in that top tier even in the case of a Labour self destruct. I'd imagine the Lib Dems or a Labour offshoot would take that place. So to be perfectly honest, following your theory, it's voting UKIP that fractures the Right! LOL

 

I think the problem we have here neems is that I'm really not Right-wing by your ultra-con/alt-right view.

 

Loads of significant parties?

in terms of votes there's only really 1,the other 2 are just very over represented and the SNP at least has very different goals in mind,just like there are very different outlooks that fall under the umbrella right wing.

 

Maybe it says more about my social circle,most people I know who I'd call libertarians tend to have 1 or 2 issues in mind and a single enemy stopping them from indulging it,but then I can't say I know many high flying businessmen.

 

The conservatives aren't in any way right wing,by any definition,they aren't going to progress toward a freer or more traditional society and give no illusions to the contrary.

 

I'm not pretending to be on the same page as you,but the problem is the same in both groups (the traditional and economic right) from what I've seen,i think it actually stems from the nature of the people involved,they tend to be self sufficient and less compromising by nature.

 

I'm not suggesting some sort of party that encompasses everything from radical traditionalism on one side anarcho capitalism on the other,not to mention everything in between is the solution!

[Wild-Bill 500]

Tory it is then lads. I always fancied ukip but reckon it's a waste of vote!

[skinner 348]

labour , but i will still hunt any thing i want to

[trigger2 3,146]

ive never voted in my life until brexit. i voted out and i am going to vote Tory today.

[KES2 171]

Some really unusual logic here and truths which are simply opinions. I particularly like the posts confirming mass autism and the 'I will still do what I want', kind of anarchic

'it really doesnt matter does it' view.

 

I wont arrogantly assume you want to know what I will be voting or justify it with specious argument, I'd be grateful if some others didnt so fundamentally insult others intelligence with their concocted codswallop.

 

You pays your money and makes your choice.

[Born Hunter 17,820]

  On 08/06/2017 at 07:39, KES2 said:

Some really unusual logic here and truths which are simply opinions. I particularly like the posts confirming mass autism and the 'I will still do what I want', kind of anarchic

'it really doesnt matter does it' view.

 

I wont arrogantly assume you want to know what I will be voting or justify it with specious argument, I'd be grateful if some others didnt so fundamentally insult others intelligence with their concocted codswallop.

 

You pays your money and makes your choice.

 

Is that aimed at me?

[walshie 2,804]

Just been and done my duty. In all honesty, whatever the outcome it wouldn't really change anything in my little part of Britain, but I don't want to see the rest of my country go to hell in a handcart.

[The one 8,512]

I think its going to be down to tactical voting here folk that who i thought would never vote conservative are now saying they will to beat the snp