Controversial !

[p3d 879]

 

 

So we've come to the conclusion that Bull type dogs were added into the working Terrier mix and working Terriers were crossed with Bull type dogs back in the day, funny old game this dog one......

DogMan85,
Unfortunately not everyone sees it that way.

It is easy for some to accept that Bull blood was added "a hundred years ago" but not to accept that it was added 30 years ago.
It offends some terriermen to believe that "their line" has bull blood in it, even when its plain to see the bull influence in the dogs.
So a "Blue Poll" might be acceptable but a Staff or EBT is out of the question. What a load of cobblers.

IMHO it is not a bad mark against a working terrier strain if bull blood is evident, if that is what the breeder wants to do.
But some guys are afraid to admit it. (even some of the big names are prone to this)
you could point at a dog and ask the owner "how was the bull blood added to your terrier" to get the answer "there is no bull blood in my dog"

What has always held my interest was HOW a breeder did it.
Some breeders have the knowledge to breed in what they want from the bull type AND keep the size down.
That to me is what men like Breay and Nuttall did well. each had there own method but each was successful in what they wanted to do.
But that is just my opinion and there are many others.

go back another hundred years add another bit of bull...go back another hundred add another bit..both ways-probably years ago people werent as fuked in the head about breeding-if they worked-nice one-if they didnt cull and try again..could be pom blood in all our workers for all we know-does it matter at this stage?

 

It matters to some, pedigree papers are what they have.

They have it, you don't..............and anything else is second best.

 

It starts off as a simple mistake or a bit of "harmless vanity" as one old timer put it.

Some breeder "mistypes" an entry in a pedigree, to avoid a bit of grief from other hunters.

Can't have lads saying their is "Bull" in his line !!!

 

It does not look like anything that terriermen have seen before.

They are experienced dogmen and they look at the strain and wonder "what is in it, that makes it look like that"

so they ask the breeder, "is there bull in that dog"...........the answer says it all.

and the lie gets bigger.............they even invent a name for it.

and the lie gets bigger.........now lads who never knew the original breeder will defend the lie.

 

It will be the downfall of any working dog IMO.

History repeats itself, one hundred years ago the White bodied Fox terrier was screwed because some A-hole decided he had a pedigree line.

After that he could not breed from a great black/tan working dog......it did not look like his dogs.

 

But each to their own....and it makes THL great craic.

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

 

 

 

So we've come to the conclusion that Bull type dogs were added into the working Terrier mix and working Terriers were crossed with Bull type dogs back in the day, funny old game this dog one......

 

DogMan85,

Unfortunately not everyone sees it that way.

 

It is easy for some to accept that Bull blood was added "a hundred years ago" but not to accept that it was added 30 years ago.

It offends some terriermen to believe that "their line" has bull blood in it, even when its plain to see the bull influence in the dogs.

So a "Blue Poll" might be acceptable but a Staff or EBT is out of the question. What a load of cobblers.

 

IMHO it is not a bad mark against a working terrier strain if bull blood is evident, if that is what the breeder wants to do.

But some guys are afraid to admit it. (even some of the big names are prone to this)

you could point at a dog and ask the owner "how was the bull blood added to your terrier" to get the answer "there is no bull blood in my dog"

 

What has always held my interest was HOW a breeder did it.

Some breeders have the knowledge to breed in what they want from the bull type AND keep the size down.

That to me is what men like Breay and Nuttall did well. each had there own method but each was successful in what they wanted to do.

But that is just my opinion and there are many others.

go back another hundred years add another bit of bull...go back another hundred add another bit..both ways-probably years ago people werent as fuked in the head about breeding-if they worked-nice one-if they didnt cull and try again..could be pom blood in all our workers for all we know-does it matter at this stage?

It matters to some, pedigree papers are what they have.

They have it, you don't..............and anything else is second best.

 

It starts off as a simple mistake or a bit of "harmless vanity" as one old timer put it.

Some breeder "mistypes" an entry in a pedigree, to avoid a bit of grief from other hunters.

Can't have lads saying their is "Bull" in his line !!!

 

It does not look like anything that terriermen have seen before.

They are experienced dogmen and they look at the strain and wonder "what is in it, that makes it look like that"

so they ask the breeder, "is there bull in that dog"...........the answer says it all.

and the lie gets bigger.............they even invent a name for it.

and the lie gets bigger.........now lads who never knew the original breeder will defend the lie.

 

It will be the downfall of any working dog IMO.

History repeats itself, one hundred years ago the White bodied Fox terrier was screwed because some A-hole decided he had a pedigree line.

After that he could not breed from a great black/tan working dog......it did not look like his dogs.

 

But each to their own....and it makes THL great craic.

You are bang on mate concerning the supposed embarrassment of admitting to bull ancestry which is beyond me .No shame in admitting that at all . I've said it before but many a line owes it's continued size to bull introduction whether done intentionally or just because the breeder likes the look of an out cross which has a good bull influence,unknown or otherwise . Tbh the first cross is not much use though some get used a bit ,it's the subsequent cross back to a working size that is the correct introduction .

[Kaizer Sozĕ 266]

Well said p3d. Cant understand lieing. Its very simple be honest with yourself and others and you cant go wrong!

[DogMan85 722]

I think folk are of the thought that other people will think they are doing something wrong if they feel the need to introduce Bull into their line.......

[kirstysdad 827]

You can trust a thief but you can't trust a liar

[onion jonny 527]

You can trust a thief but you can't trust a liar

thought it was YOU CAN WATCH A THIEF BUT YOU CANT WATCH A LIAR.

[Mixedgrill 704]

A lot of black dog's have plenty of bull in their make up you only have to look at some of them bull sticks out a mile

[Rabbit Hunter 6,613]

 

 

You can trust a thief but you can't trust a liar

thought it was YOU CAN WATCH A THIEF BUT YOU CANT WATCH A LIAR.

I wouldn't trust neither. Edited April 19, 2017 by Rabbit Hunter

[dillydog 8,463]

I don't get the bull blood, why would you set yourself back by two or three generations, life's too short !

If from what the bull blood aficionados are saying, the first or second generations aren't much use, why would you put yourself through the wait ? Surely you'd be better off finding a working terrier with the style you're after.

[p3d 879]

I don't get the bull blood, why would you set yourself back by two or three generations, life's too short !

If from what the bull blood aficionados are saying, the first or second generations aren't much use, why would you put yourself through the wait ? Surely you'd be better off finding a working terrier with the style you're after.

 

DD

 

That is the question on every terriermens mind when they hear that Mr. Breay and others MAY have added Bull blood.

 

Quoting from "The Fell terrier" there was a well known terrierman who approached Mr. Breay at a show and asked him about Bull blood in his terriers. I believe the answer was there was none. (These men are still alive so the story can be verified regardless of the book source)

That terrierman went over and asked because no one had seen that type of dog before in the area.

 

Now most terriermen can see bull influence in a dog, terrier or running dog or even mongrel. It stands out like a sore thumb.

This man did not ask lightly, he and his friends believed that there was bull blood added.

 

And everyone would agree that the size would increase, so why would a man working in the Lake district need the attributes of a bull terrier?

I would like to be able to ask him. but that cannot happen.

So we can debate whether bull was added or not, into White terriers, Fell terriers, it is an interesting topic if you are interested in working terriers.

 

As the post said...Controversial...but interesting.

[DogMan85 722]

 

 

I don't get the bull blood, why would you set yourself back by two or three generations, life's too short !

If from what the bull blood aficionados are saying, the first or second generations aren't much use, why would you put yourself through the wait ? Surely you'd be better off finding a working terrier with the style you're after.

DD

 

That is the question on every terriermens mind when they hear that Mr. Breay and others MAY have added Bull blood.

 

Quoting from "The Fell terrier" there was a well known terrierman who approached Mr. Breay at a show and asked him about Bull blood in his terriers. I believe the answer was there was none. (These men are still alive so the story can be verified regardless of the book source)

That terrierman went over and asked because no one had seen that type of dog before in the area.

 

Now most terriermen can see bull influence in a dog, terrier or running dog or even mongrel. It stands out like a sore thumb.

This man did not ask lightly, he and his friends believed that there was bull blood added.

 

And everyone would agree that the size would increase, so why would a man working in the Lake district need the attributes of a bull terrier?

I would like to be able to ask him. but that cannot happen.

So we can debate whether bull was added or not, into White terriers, Fell terriers, it is an interesting topic if you are interested in working terriers.

 

As the post said...Controversial...but interesting.

And another million dollar question is if the Old English Bulldog was as game as they say it was then why did they cross it with Terriers to create the dog that went on to be the APBT?

 

I don't believe the general consensus that the Bulldog was too slow and ponderous for fighting, how the hell can a dog that works Bulls be slow and ponderous? Maybe the working Terriers have been game all along because you wouldn't cross a Gamedog with a cur to create a fighting animal.

[Rabbit Hunter 6,613]

I've never understood the Bull influence. If it's hardness your after then there's plenty of mute hard terriers about to use. And if its size then theres definitly a load of huge terriers around too!

[DogMan85 722]

I've never understood the Bull influence. If it's hardness your after then there's plenty of mute hard terriers about to use. And if its size then theres definitly a load of huge terriers around too!

But did that hardness come from the Bull in the first place? ?

[Onlyworkmatters 1,584]

 

I've never understood the Bull influence. If it's hardness your after then there's plenty of mute hard terriers about to use. And if its size then theres definitly a load of huge terriers around too!

But did that hardness come from the Bull in the first place?

 

 

and the size

[tinytiger 840]

 

 

 

I don't get the bull blood, why would you set yourself back by two or three generations, life's too short !

If from what the bull blood aficionados are saying, the first or second generations aren't much use, why would you put yourself through the wait ? Surely you'd be better off finding a working terrier with the style you're after.

DD

 

That is the question on every terriermens mind when they hear that Mr. Breay and others MAY have added Bull blood.

 

Quoting from "The Fell terrier" there was a well known terrierman who approached Mr. Breay at a show and asked him about Bull blood in his terriers. I believe the answer was there was none. (These men are still alive so the story can be verified regardless of the book source)

That terrierman went over and asked because no one had seen that type of dog before in the area.

 

Now most terriermen can see bull influence in a dog, terrier or running dog or even mongrel. It stands out like a sore thumb.

This man did not ask lightly, he and his friends believed that there was bull blood added.

 

And everyone would agree that the size would increase, so why would a man working in the Lake district need the attributes of a bull terrier?

I would like to be able to ask him. but that cannot happen.

So we can debate whether bull was added or not, into White terriers, Fell terriers, it is an interesting topic if you are interested in working terriers.

 

As the post said...Controversial...but interesting.

And another million dollar question is if the Old English Bulldog was as game as they say it was then why did they cross it with Terriers to create the dog that went on to be the APBT?

 

I don't believe the general consensus that the Bulldog was too slow and ponderous for fighting, how the hell can a dog that works Bulls be slow and ponderous? Maybe the working Terriers have been game all along because you wouldn't cross a Gamedog with a cur to create a fighting animal.

maybe it was a continuous process going on for hundreds of years adding terrier to small mastiff types(something like the cur (breed)dogs in america)-see plenty over there crossing them with jagd and other terrier types-must have a reason for doing so.the original bulldog still exists in the deep south(not an american bulldog but similar)