scothunter 12,609 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 Another thing is always blaming the past parties or in frumps case Clinton who was never even in office lol Tories do it even now blaming labour who haven't been in power for years ffs. @kernel in perfectly calm it's you lot who go off on one when trump or Putin is criticised. As for his politics I didn't actually realise he had any lol 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,817 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, ChrisJones said: Still doesn't make it right though. While I believe that negotiation has to be the preferable avenue he should atone for his part in it all. As above, mate. Just because they haven't been held accountable doesn't mean we're not allowed to point that out or insist that they are held accountable. Do you think that is compatible with peace through diplomacy though mate? Any hint of future accountability and the NK regime will hold on to and continue to develop it's only credible defence system. As far as I see, the players in this game have two choices; accept the NK regime for what it is and give them a free pass, allowing them to transition from their position as a nuclear lone wolf to much greater ties with China and Russia OR bomb the f**k out of them. If I was Kim I'd be wanting some very significant economic insurance in the form of great investment from major regional powers that are not in the pocket of the US before I considered giving up the one thing that is currently making the US war machine think twice about flattening me. Any suggestions that I'll be brought before the Hague once I have given up my strategic weapons would not be conducive to 'good faith'. Edited June 13, 2018 by Born Hunter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,817 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 It does make me laugh though to think what Trump's base would be saying if Obama/Clinton had done this. Be along the lines of exactly what Chris is saying about letting a dictator with crimes against humanity on his record get off the hook. It's a valid position but other than the likes of Chris, I'm not convinced many would feel the same if it wasn't Trump in the driving seat. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shepp 2,285 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 13 hours ago, DIDO.1 said: I don't think any one thinks Kim is a hero...... He a cruel dictator......so we either invade or try for a peace deal. If Obama or hillary had got this far they would already be awarded a Nobel peace prize. Obama actually received one in 2009 for very little other than being black. 1 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnGalway 1,043 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 Someone enlighten me as to exactly what Trump has achieved here. From what little I've read Trump has Pledged to stop "War Games" with South Korea, no doubt filling the SK's with joy. Met a brutal dictator who's crimes are numerous on equal terms. Hinted sanctions will come to an end. Hinted at a US troop withdraw from South Korea. From what I understand, Rocket Man has closed his already blown up beyond use nuclear testing facility and committed to "denucularisation" which from a North Korean point of view means removing the US protective nuclear shield from the neighborhood. Great win for the little fat lad with the bad hair. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 47,722 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 13 minutes ago, JohnGalway said: Someone enlighten me as to exactly what Trump has achieved here. From what little I've read Trump has Pledged to stop "War Games" with South Korea, no doubt filling the SK's with joy. Met a brutal dictator who's crimes are numerous on equal terms. Hinted sanctions will come to an end. Hinted at a US troop withdraw from South Korea. From what I understand, Rocket Man has closed his already blown up beyond use nuclear testing facility and committed to "denucularisation" which from a North Korean point of view means removing the US protective nuclear shield from the neighborhood. Great win for the little fat lad with the bad hair. Still, with all that said......it sounds a little in front of “if you don’t keep Northern Ireland in Europe we think there should be a return to paramilitaries blowing up kids!” 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,817 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, JohnGalway said: Great win for the little fat lad with the bad hair. How so? Do you think that if progress ends then the US strategy will not revert? What has been achieved is a gentlemanly respect on either side with an agreement on the objectives of this new relationship. Nothing tangible has changed, but a lot in terms of potential. If you can't see the significance of these two heads of state literally being brought to 'the table' then I'm really going to struggle to explain it to you. If we want to talk about justice for the acts he has committed then we have to consider this rehabilitation rather than retribution. Retribution in this case is not a realistic diplomatic option. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 47,722 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Born Hunter said: How so? Do you think that if progress ends then the US strategy will not revert? What has been achieved is a gentlemanly respect on either side with an agreement on the objectives of this new relationship. Nothing tangible has changed, but a lot in terms of potential. If you can't see the significance of these two heads of state literally being brought to 'the table' then I'm really going to struggle to explain it to you. If we want to talk about justice for the acts he has committed then we have to consider this rehabilitation rather than retribution. Retribution in this case is not a realistic diplomatic option. Mate don’t bother, it’s the height of fashion to hate Trump in Ireland........it’s pathethtic and f***ing boring. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnGalway 1,043 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 Just now, Born Hunter said: How so? Do you think that if progress ends then the US strategy will not revert? What has been achieved is a gentlemanly respect on either side with an agreement on the objectives of this new relationship. Nothing tangible has changed, but a lot in terms of potential. If you can't see the significance of these two heads of state literally being brought to 'the table' then I'm really going to struggle to explain it to you. If we want to talk about justice for the acts he has committed then we have to consider this rehabilitation rather than retribution. Retribution in this case is not a realistic diplomatic option. Oh it has, in favour of Kim. What did Trump get? All he did was give. Enlighten me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,817 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 Just now, JohnGalway said: Oh it has, in favour of Kim. What did Trump get? All he did was give. Enlighten me. You realise the capability of the US military right? I mean they could have more force deployed to East Asia by the end of the week than any other country could manage in a year. Pulling up some force is utterly meaningless in real military terms but extremely meaningful in diplomatic ones. What Trump got was gentlemanly respect which is potential in any business minded negotiation/relationship. It may all collapse, so I'm not backing his Nobel prize yet, but ultimately that will mean f**k all as the administrations strategy reverts to isolation, defence of regional allies and potentially intervention. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnGalway 1,043 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 Just now, Born Hunter said: You realise the capability of the US military right? I mean they could have more force deployed to East Asia by the end of the week than any other country could manage in a year. Pulling up some force is utterly meaningless in real military terms but extremely meaningful in diplomatic ones. What Trump got was gentlemanly respect which is potential in any business minded negotiation/relationship. It may all collapse, so I'm not backing his Nobel prize yet, but ultimately that will mean f**k all as the administrations strategy reverts to isolation, defence of regional allies and potentially intervention. Right, like I thought, Trump had to give a lot to get nothing. The American president had to give gifts just to meet a third world dictator. The Fart of the deal, in action. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 47,722 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Born Hunter said: You realise the capability of the US military right? I mean they could have more force deployed to East Asia by the end of the week than any other country could manage in a year. Pulling up some force is utterly meaningless in real military terms but extremely meaningful in diplomatic ones. What Trump got was gentlemanly respect which is potential in any business minded negotiation/relationship. It may all collapse, so I'm not backing his Nobel prize yet, but ultimately that will mean f**k all as the administrations strategy reverts to isolation, defence of regional allies and potentially intervention. Nah, old Kim was worried that Varadkar, Trusk and Junker would encourage the IRA to start blowing up shoppers ! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJones 7,975 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Kerny92 said: He's done a hell of a lot more than Obama already..... Such as? 5 hours ago, scothunter said: Another thing is always blaming the past parties or in frumps case Clinton who was never even in office lol Whataboutism. 4 hours ago, Born Hunter said: Do you think that is compatible with peace through diplomacy though mate? Depends on what the exact involvement is with Kim the younger, I suppose. Denuclearisation is obviously the most desirable outcome but I don't think for a second that anyone is in a huge rush to address the Kim dynasty's atrocities either. Again doesn't make it right, IMHO. If the new Kim doesn't have blood on his hands maybe this appeasement of the west has merit. 4 hours ago, Born Hunter said: Any hint of future accountability and the NK regime will hold on to and continue to develop it's only credible defence system. As far as I see, the players in this game have two choices; accept the NK regime for what it is and give them a free pass, allowing them to transition from their position as a nuclear lone wolf to much greater ties with China and Russia OR bomb the f**k out of them. That's possible but even the Russians and Chinese were privately disgruntled at Kim's tantrums. As I've said previously they were far more likely to keep him in check as they make more money with trade, currently, than with conquest. Don's tariffs and an olive branch will change that and only time will tell us whether it's for the better or worse. I'm quietly optimistic at this point because all we have is a signed piece of paper stating that there'll be further discussions. 4 hours ago, Born Hunter said: If I was Kim I'd be wanting some very significant economic insurance in the form of great investment from major regional powers that are not in the pocket of the US before I considered giving up the one thing that is currently making the US war machine think twice about flattening me. Any suggestions that I'll be brought before the Hague once I have given up my strategic weapons would not be conducive to 'good faith'. I can't argue with that, but if I was Kim I'd be looking at my gulags and the track record of my dad and grandad and I'd be perspiring more than a little. The bigger issue on the western side is keeping the neo-cons from opening their mouths as that will do more to derail the process than anything else. You only have to look at the gulf and Afghanistan to see how their foreign policy has played out and if we're going to engage in whataboutery then what about Bush and Blair? I don't think it would be wise to lead with discussions about genocide but I don't think he should slide for it either. He probably will because that's how it's played. Doesn't make it right though. 4 hours ago, Born Hunter said: It does make me laugh though to think what Trump's base would be saying if Obama/Clinton had done this. Be along the lines of exactly what Chris is saying about letting a dictator with crimes against humanity on his record get off the hook. It's a valid position but other than the likes of Chris, I'm not convinced many would feel the same if it wasn't Trump in the driving seat. I'm sure it would be quietly ignored the same as any glaring anomaly that's brought up in politics. Obama and Clinton are continually vilified for their continuation of the Bush administrations war in the middle east, and I agree that they should be. I just want the same measure to be applied across the spectrum. If you believe in democracy you have to accept the result of the election providing there isn't fraud. The people have spoken. After that, it all depends on how they perform at the job. Even if Gary Johnson had been elected I would have a thread running following his policies. Just because I like the guy doesn't make him above scrutiny because that's our job as the electorate. Edited June 13, 2018 by ChrisJones Typo 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,817 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 9 minutes ago, WILF said: Mate don’t bother, it’s the height of fashion to hate Trump in Ireland........it’s pathethtic and f***ing boring. I'm sort of and sort of not surprised but this president seems to have really reinforced peoples partisan-'ness'. Folks are even less open minded now than ever before imo. Absolutely blinded by either hate or idolisation. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,817 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Share Posted June 13, 2018 15 minutes ago, JohnGalway said: Right, like I thought, Trump had to give a lot to get nothing. The American president had to give gifts just to meet a third world dictator. The Fart of the deal, in action. okay, you win. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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