Lions & Tigers & Bears Oh My...

[Guest Lord B]

I would be interested to hear peoples views about the reintroduction of species such as Elk, Bear, Lynx, Wolves etc to our country.

 

For the past 5 years or so Paul Lister has been looking into the idea ( I believe he is a big shooting man).

 

He owns the Allendale Estate in the Highlands, small 25,000 acre estate Where he has recently started his plan to have a self sustaining predotor population by last week introducing European Elk; he will also introduce the above animals; with the goal of naturally controling his deer population using "natural" predetor control.

 

This is a huge estate, not an enclosed safari park; although under the law as it stands this is ilegal and the area has to be fenced off ; however Scotish legislation and the likes of CROW also makes it a legal requirement for the land to be "open"........

 

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this. What effects will this kind of "management" have on the ecosystem, the wildlife etc??

 

Should the long long long since gone species be back here running wild? We can't agree on wild boar let alone bears, wolves and lynx!

 

For more info Google - Paul Lister, or Allendale Estate.

[Guest Ditch_Shitter]

For more info Google - Paul Lister, or Allendale Estate.

 

Thanks for what I'm sure, when I have time to dig into it, will become quite a fasinating issue

 

I'm already burning to read more on this point. I simply have to be somewhere else before I start becoming engrossed in another trip right now.

 

This Thread is now 'Scent Marked' to remind myself

[Guest Lord B]

For more info Google - Paul Lister, or Allendale Estate.

 

Thanks for what I'm sure, when I have time to dig into it, will become quite a fasinating issue

 

I'm already burning to read more on this point. I simply have to be somewhere else before I start becoming engrossed in another trip right now.

 

This Thread is now 'Scent Marked' to remind myself

[Malt 379]

It would be a great idea. There's a campaign gathering pace in Scotland somewhere to reintroduce the european beaver, and i'm sure i read somewhere, about wolves being reintroduced.

[Guest Macnas]

I'm in two minds about it, (for all my opinion is worth of course), on one hand it's pleasing to imagine at least, that the original fauna could be back after a species hiatus of anything from a couple of hundred to a thousand years.

 

On the other hand, time has moved on and things are different now. The estate in question may be enormous but there are bound to be issues with predators such as wolves, lynx and bears. The existing wildlife has developed without these predators, and in my opinion the exiting wildlife should take priority.

 

Also, many of these species left the land due to pressures other than mankind, and in the scheme of things, could be seen as just part of natural progression.

And finally, there is the issue of this being nothing more than a very rich man wanting to play big zoo, which might be unfair, but there is a hint of it.

[TOMO 26,963]

hes an idiot. lets get real here, thers no way local people , gamkeepers and farmers are going to stand by and watch there livstock get eaten

 

of course the wolves are going to eat the elk and red deer NOT. No there going to get fat on easy prey " mutton" and beef . there is know way this will work in our small over crowded island. even though some parts of scotland are remote, there not that romote , and there are always crofters and small villages not that far a way.

 

a wolf is quite capable of travling 30 mile in a night. now i dowt weather there is a spot in the uk that farther than 30 mile from a vilage or some kind of habbitation.

 

it may work on a deserted island if there was one big enough.

[Guest Macnas]

I propose the Isle of Man.

[Guest Ditch_Shitter]

Interesting. (It's Alladale by the way, for anyone who'd care to examine the Facts of the mans proposals ~ Tomo, one assumes, excepted?)

 

Looks ok to me. I'd imagine the crofters will be glad of some real life relief too. Sadly though it looks as if his biggest obsticle will be the Ramblers. Ye know; " Right to Roam " merchents and other assorted forms of " Anti's " who drive their stinking, enviromentally destructive little motors out of their citys at weekends and then red facedly Demand their " Right " to trapse through someone elses back yard. Of course, They won't want essentially native 'nasty animals' getting in Their way. No more than they like men with guns or anyone else out to harvest lesser wild animals.

 

No. They'll do all they can to block this proposal. All they want in the outdoors is themselves. Stout boots. Wooly socks and bobble hats. Nothing else.

 

There's some selfish b*stards about.

[johnv 0]

Was at a meeting about the reintroduction of wolves into Scotland a few years ago. The expert had come ready to put forward a case for but after traveling around the highlands went for no! The organizers were not happy. The fact wasScotland was to small for wolves. Sheep also a proplem wolves are bright their not going to chase a large fast deer when theres small wooley sheep. Its tempting though

[BlueCoyote 0]

Interesting. (It's Alladale All they want in the outdoors is themselves. Stout boots. Wooly socks and bobble hats. Nothing else.

 

There's some selfish b*stards about.

 

 

a few bears would take care of that in no time.... thats if they get past the protesting ....

 

i hear a lot of arguments about these animals being gone so long that they couldnt possibly fit in again... i think they could if you had the right priorities on which animal you introduced first... its a tricky puzzle though. too many elk at first and suddenly they have eaten everything... too many wolves and they start looking for the easy prey (but that is easily overcome with the right kind of protection.. if Anatolian Sheepdogs can guard flocks against Cheetahs and lions in Africa then a wolf is nothing to worry about, right?

 

i read about the prospect of releasing beavers into Scotland and heard some silly arguments against it.. some disease that is common to beavers.. but exists already without them. it was a weak argument to say the least. Of course beavers will change the landscape and the flow of streams in a major way.. so you would HAVE to have a predator to control them, right?

a Lynx would probably be the best candidate to start with... they're solitary, and nocturnal.. and Beavers are nocturnal and a prey item... sounds like a perfect match to start with...

 

i think its silly to imagine this guy acquiring a stock trailor of elk, bears, wolves, and lynx and releasing them all in one day.... i really think the best bet would be to release the beaver first... then the lynx.... then if that goes well... release the elk next.. however ... each year in Alaska, there are more moose/elk-related deaths than bear-related deaths.. and it's a darn good thing they are herbivores otherwise there'd be even more moose/elk-related deaths.. something to consider i suppose...

 

 

 

In the end it doesnt really prove anything.... well maybe it does. i dont know what sort of significant impact beavers have on the environment... if its good or bad.. i guess it depends!! but considering a lot of moose (or european elk) like to eat vegitation from ponds.. it still seems like a good match.

It SOUNDS like this guy is trying to turn Scotland into Canada..... eh?

[Guest Lord B]

Interesting. (It's Alladale All they want in the outdoors is themselves. Stout boots. Wooly socks and bobble hats. Nothing else.

 

There's some selfish b*stards about.

 

 

a few bears would take care of that in no time.... thats if they get past the protesting ....

 

i hear a lot of arguments about these animals being gone so long that they couldnt possibly fit in again... i think they could if you had the right priorities on which animal you introduced first... its a tricky puzzle though. too many elk at first and suddenly they have eaten everything... too many wolves and they start looking for the easy prey (but that is easily overcome with the right kind of protection.. if Anatolian Sheepdogs can guard flocks against Cheetahs and lions in Africa then a wolf is nothing to worry about, right?

 

i read about the prospect of releasing beavers into Scotland and heard some silly arguments against it.. some disease that is common to beavers.. but exists already without them. it was a weak argument to say the least. Of course beavers will change the landscape and the flow of streams in a major way.. so you would HAVE to have a predator to control them, right?

a Lynx would probably be the best candidate to start with... they're solitary, and nocturnal.. and Beavers are nocturnal and a prey item... sounds like a perfect match to start with...

 

i think its silly to imagine this guy acquiring a stock trailor of elk, bears, wolves, and lynx and releasing them all in one day.... i really think the best bet would be to release the beaver first... then the lynx.... then if that goes well... release the elk next.. however ... each year in Alaska, there are more moose/elk-related deaths than bear-related deaths.. and it's a darn good thing they are herbivores otherwise there'd be even more moose/elk-related deaths.. something to consider i suppose...

 

 

 

In the end it doesnt really prove anything.... well maybe it does. i dont know what sort of significant impact beavers have on the environment... if its good or bad.. i guess it depends!! but considering a lot of moose (or european elk) like to eat vegitation from ponds.. it still seems like a good match.

It SOUNDS like this guy is trying to turn Scotland into Canada..... eh?

 

I haven't read enough yet omn this to know too many fact. I know the species I mentioned are the ones he has/wants. I know he HAS last week introduced Elk. I don't know if they are the first breed or the last, but its an interesting debate.

 

The fact that this is actually happening is quite amazing, whats more amazing is that there isn't a huge amount of publicity over it, good or bad....?

[BlueCoyote 0]

The fact that this is actually happening is quite amazing, whats more amazing is that there isn't a huge amount of publicity over it, good or bad....?

 

i dont know if it would be good or bad or not.. probably funny more than anything if you consider the possible headlines in the news... some unsuspecting old woman out walking her dachshund before bed suddenly crosses paths with an elk.... the song "Grandma got run over by a reindeer" comes to mind!!

 

seriously though.. given the fact that there is dispute over fencing the animals in or NOT being allowed to fence them in - that part confused me... - if they ever did get into a heavily populated area it wouldnt be funny at all. these animals (American Elk-Wapiti- AND European Elk -Moose-) are both very dangerous and very aggressive.... Given that few people survive the encounter i think it would be in the publics best interest in regards to safety to let them know about this.

 

Then again... if there really are people that think its their God Given Right to trespass on private property.. then by all means let them reap those benefits!!

[Guest Lord B]

Then again... if there really are people that think its their God Given Right to trespass on private property.. then by all means let them reap those benefits!!

 

[Guest Ditch_Shitter]

there isn't a huge amount of publicity over it, good or bad....?

 

 

Good. Less people get to hear about it, less f*cking busy bodys and jobs worths to stick their noses into what's going on, hundreds of miles away on ground they'll never visit and concerning animals they'd never encounter if they happened to be in that neck of the woods and minding their own business. In short; Matters which will never, in any way shape or form impinge on their own wretched little lives. But about which they'll raise all hell once they get wind of a couple of unsubstanciated or researched sound bites.

 

Anyone think of any comparisons to all this ....?

[Guest Lord B]

there isn't a huge amount of publicity over it, good or bad....?

 

 

Good. Less people get to hear about it, less f*cking busy bodys and jobs worths to stick their noses into what's going on, hundreds of miles away on ground they'll never visit and concerning animals they'd never encounter if they happened to be in that neck of the woods and minding their own business. In short; Matters which will never, in any way shape or form impinge on their own wretched little lives. But about which they'll raise all hell once they get wind of a couple of unsubstanciated or researched sound bites.

 

Anyone think of any comparisons to all this ....?

Eloquently put.

 

I'd like to know much more about this not from a sensationalist point of view but out of real interest.

 

Does sound a bit Jurasic Park though! The one thing I have noticed though is that nobody has mention hunting, what sporting oportunaties this may produce. Not that I'm advocating going and the only two pair of Elk in the UK; but its interesting that nobody has thought of it in that way......