A Razors Edge

[Kaizer Sozĕ 266]

A lot stayed too...

[BlackBuck 655]

Only have to look at the rep they have up this end and it says it all

[stop.end 4,079]

LOL..... a razors edge ehh... perfect title.. theres usernames popping up saying they know me and I did this or that... well i dont know one of yous internet usernames or holograms from atom... except maybe the general... your old username MUDD... camoflauge coat in a hotel in 2011 in Ballywalter?

Usernames are easy this is the tinternet...anyone who work terriers and only want to see terriers go forward and the laws being made realistic ...

say the word...step forward ..

stop.end is not the IWTF.... he just a man who believes the IWTF.s ethos and conduct is the only way....if terrier work in the future is too go forward.

 

Happy new year..everyone... and best of luck for 2017....

[stop.end 4,079]

Only have to look at the rep they have up this end and it says it all

See you have done your research BlackBuck.... the IWTF do not have reps up your end...they don't have representatives at all.. they have a Committee and members as far as im aware .

[Glyn..... 5,208]

 

What's in a name anyway.....

 

It is a great question, the answer is "not much" when the dog is in the ground.

But we are terrier men, more than anything probably dog men.

In general we are interested in anything to do with dogs, the name does not matter but IMO the breeding does.

 

The pedigree posted was from BN yard linked to a pedigree written by Mr Breay.

Possibly the only time he committed a pedigree to paper of his and Mr Bucks line

 

When we check a pedigree there are a couple of things we can do to check if it is authentic.

First divide the years on the pedigree by the generations, in this case (1975-1920 = 75 years. divided by 15 generations).

This gives us roughly 5 years between breeding each bitch. This would seem high until you check in detail.

Buck/Breay bred a bitch and then bred her with her nephew a lot of times. this would have taken 3 years for the bitch to be proven (at least)

and another 2/3 years for the nephew to be proven. That tally's with the 5 year span between breeding.

 

Also it was curious to me if the Breay/Buck line were closely inbreeding their dogs.

Where they did breed close generations (Blitz and Mick were full brothers) they also outcrossed in nearly every generation.

Usually to a stud dog from one of the hunt kennels but also bitches (The Orton and Tebay Bitch's)

 

They did not seem to mind mixing kennels either, for example if they kept going to one kennel you would assume they wanted a particular type.

 

Just found out that the Bitch Tanner was out of Mick (Full brother to Blitz) so the pedigree posted can have another 14 instances of the line added.

That will make 28 times that line appears back to the white terriers in 1920.

28 times is a lot and we have not finished yet.

It now is obvious why Mr Breay only needed to remember that particular line to write down for his and Bucks line.

He knew that it was used so many times, right back to 1920.

 

If a terrierman was going to continue the Breay/Buck line, should he outcross every generation like they did?

Or just inbreed the remaining dogs.

 

Also does anyone believe that Kipper / Border dog / Biddy could produce a Smooth coated dog like Judy?

 

That Border dog entry in Judys pedigree is unusual, if you are breeding a line form the Breay/Buck line,

would you not know a SMALL BIT about the new dog you were introducing into the line? (like where he came from)

 

i think your getting a bit obsessed with the border blood , stop thinking of it as some heavy coated kc bred thing these working line borders from what i was told where small broken coated apple headed fell types for lack of a better word and 75% of Judys breeding was smooth coated , but most importantly Workers , i love studying these old peds there of great interest to me , but if the stuff knocking about now bred down from them doesn't work then use the paper to wipe your ass because thats all its good for , you seem to of gleaned some insight into the blood lines but then start to cast doubt on the breeding of these greats of the sport , remember the quote a little knowledge is a dangerous thing anyway no more post off me there seems to be two thread going on here

Edited December 30, 2016 by Glyn.....

[BlackBuck 655]

Is it stop end or Bell end ? Maybe they don't have reps I don't know and less do I care . Whatever the Twat that was either in the committee or whatever it was , would know as much about working terriers as my arse knows about snipe shooting . The same that that was removed from an area for reasons not to be discussed on here , the same twat that when we arrived at a sett one day was already there , said they had a dog on , same dog was sitting a foot in the hole looking out at us while him and his mates sat about getting stoned , if that's the IWTF you can keep it

[eastcoast 4,081]

Most of this thread seems to stem from people needing to know the accuracy and honesty of the blood behind the dogs that you have now. So the are you all keeping accurate written records of your own dogs ?

[THE GENERAL 1,982]

LOL..... a razors edge ehh... perfect title.. theres usernames popping up saying they know me and I did this or that... well i dont know one of yous internet usernames or holograms from atom... except maybe the general... your old username MUDD... camoflauge coat in a hotel in 2011 in Ballywalter?

Usernames are easy this is the tinternet...anyone who work terriers and only want to see terriers go forward and the laws being made realistic ...

say the word...step forward ..

stop.end is not the IWTF.... he just a man who believes the IWTF.s ethos and conduct is the only way....if terrier work in the future is too go forward.

 

Happy new year..everyone... and best of luck for 2017....

What's it got to do with what I was wearing? ?

Yes my username was MUDD DOG before my account was disabled and I was no longer able to logon, that was 4 years ago. Crime of the century, me bad haha. Atb

[DogFox123 1,379]

The Black Un's didn't just arise after a meteor strike did they, dogs of different breeds and lines were mixed to create the ideal digging dog.

[Lenmcharristar 9,687]

FFS lads wise up a bit, fecking laughing stock this thread, the internal fighting is doing us as a group no favours. Who really cares who does what? Not everybody gonna see eye to eye granted but yas are making the coarsing lads look like the sensible good Samaritans

[smasher 1,055]

From reading above post from pd3 is it possible that buck/breay did breed close but weren't afraid to go outside if there was a better worker available,that they believed could improve on what they already had,and obviously these men were not kennel blind,so it would seem a bit of line breeding and a bit of worker to worker went into the the dogs they had,that and plenty of work but in front of there tykes and the best selected and bred from.

[p3d 879]

From reading above post from pd3 is it possible that buck/breay did breed close but weren't afraid to go outside if there was a better worker available,that they believed could improve on what they already had,and obviously these men were not kennel blind,so it would seem a bit of line breeding and a bit of worker to worker went into the the dogs they had,that and plenty of work but in front of there tykes and the best selected and bred from.

 

Smasher,

That was the point, I have only the highest respect for the Black dogs, dug over some excellent terriers from this line.

My interest was in where they came from, how the men who started the strain selected their breeding stock and perfected their line.

 

I put up the pedigrees from 3 men who are credited with the foundation stock.

Noticed a gap in the lined asked if anybody could fill it.

A case of a little knowledge looking for more knowledge. I will learn from anyone willing to part with information.

 

Have had PM's from men who know some of the history of this line and they are going to try and fill in the blanks.

Men who know Mr. Nuttall and his Son, have been in his yard and discussed the very lines shown here.

They also are not happy with the dog titled "Border Dog*" in the pedigree. and the empty spaces in that dogs history.

 

To learn form these legends we need to know their methods and what worked for them.

 

I will leave it at that. The Black dogs are not my specific interest, was more interested in the men who started them.

Don't really care what lads call them.

 

 

Stopend has more interest in protecting working terriers in Ireland than all of the people trying to tear him down

No matter how long it takes the truth will come out in the end.

Excuses for why lads walked away when terrierwork needed them sound lame at best.

That battle is over, you were there or you were not.

You can't go back now that terrierwork was protected.

 

Happy new year to everyone.

Last post on this thread from me.

P3D

[DogFox123 1,379]

 

 

From reading above post from pd3 is it possible that buck/breay did breed close but weren't afraid to go outside if there was a better worker available,that they believed could improve on what they already had,and obviously these men were not kennel blind,so it would seem a bit of line breeding and a bit of worker to worker went into the the dogs they had,that and plenty of work but in front of there tykes and the best selected and bred from.

Smasher,

That was the point, I have only the highest respect for the Black dogs, dug over some excellent terriers from this line.

My interest was in where they came from, how the men who started the strain selected their breeding stock and perfected their line.

 

I put up the pedigrees from 3 men who are credited with the foundation stock.

Noticed a gap in the lined asked if anybody could fill it.

A case of a little knowledge looking for more knowledge. I will learn from anyone willing to part with information.

 

Have had PM's from men who know some of the history of this line and they are going to try and fill in the blanks.

Men who know Mr. Nuttall and his Son, have been in his yard and discussed the very lines shown here.

They also are not happy with the dog titled "Border Dog*" in the pedigree. and the empty spaces in that dogs history.

 

To learn form these legends we need to know their methods and what worked for them.

 

I will leave it at that. The Black dogs are not my specific interest, was more interested in the men who started them.

Don't really care what lads call them.

 

 

Stopend has more interest in protecting working terriers in Ireland than all of the people trying to tear him down

No matter how long it takes the truth will come out in the end.

Excuses for why lads walked away when terrierwork needed them sound lame at best.

That battle is over, you were there or you were not.

You can't go back now that terrierwork was protected.

 

Happy new year to everyone.

Last post on this thread from me.

P3D

The truth will never come out though, history becomes legend and legend becomes myth. The aim of the game is improvement.

[neil cooney 10,416]

 

From reading above post from pd3 is it possible that buck/breay did breed close but weren't afraid to go outside if there was a better worker available,that they believed could improve on what they already had,and obviously these men were not kennel blind,so it would seem a bit of line breeding and a bit of worker to worker went into the the dogs they had,that and plenty of work but in front of there tykes and the best selected and bred from.

 

Smasher,

That was the point, I have only the highest respect for the Black dogs, dug over some excellent terriers from this line.

My interest was in where they came from, how the men who started the strain selected their breeding stock and perfected their line.

 

I put up the pedigrees from 3 men who are credited with the foundation stock.

Noticed a gap in the lined asked if anybody could fill it.

A case of a little knowledge looking for more knowledge. I will learn from anyone willing to part with information.

 

Have had PM's from men who know some of the history of this line and they are going to try and fill in the blanks.

Men who know Mr. Nuttall and his Son, have been in his yard and discussed the very lines shown here.

They also are not happy with the dog titled "Border Dog*" in the pedigree. and the empty spaces in that dogs history.

 

To learn form these legends we need to know their methods and what worked for them.

 

I will leave it at that. The Black dogs are not my specific interest, was more interested in the men who started them.

Don't really care what lads call them.

 

 

Stopend has more interest in protecting working terriers in Ireland than all of the people trying to tear him down

No matter how long it takes the truth will come out in the end.

Excuses for why lads walked away when terrierwork needed them sound lame at best.

That battle is over, you were there or you were not.

You can't go back now that terrierwork was protected.

 

Happy new year to everyone.

Last post on this thread from me.

P3D

 

P3D,

I know that that last paragraph was aimed at me.

First off, Stopend has no interest in the preservation of any type of working terrier.

He was a devoted Jack Russell swapper 2 years ago, last year he was asking lads to sell him black pups and now he has so called Cork white terriers that he got off a man who's terriers are well known for coming away, BUT, they must be breeding true to form because one came away after 40 minutes for him recently and refused to go back. The first ever words I had with Stopend was when I asked him to take down pics of a lurcher drawing. Now he thinks he's the patron saint of terrierwork.

If he loved terrierwork he (and yous) would have stepped aside because we all knew that most terriermen in N.I. wouldn't join as long as he was involved. You's all knew this at the time.

You, yourself can only contribute to any terrier conversation if it's something you got out of a book. There's something very Plummerish about you, but that to be expected from someone who got into terriers yesterday in his 50s.

As for terrierwork in it's hour of need.

You know for a fact that I had 5 meetings with the Junior Minister of Agriculture ,Shane McEntee (RIP) who office was in my village and that got us a meeting with the Ministry of Agriculture who explained to us that terrierwork was 100% SAFE with the up coming Animal Health and Welfare Bill.

This was before the IWTF was up and running so you's part time terrier men who we left behind CANNOT give yourselves any pats on the back for saving terrierwork at all.

So don't try and say anyone desserted the IWTF because along with myself some of the most respected terriermen from your county WALKED away from you and your dangerous sort, we didn't walk away from terrierwork.

I wont even go in to detail as to how you and your control freak mate nearly got terrierwork banned when you were asked not to contact certain people but you thought you knew it all. Terrierwork was within a hairs breath of being banned because of yous.

So, make all the snide remarks you want and I'll reply and I can even have disscussions on actual terierwork, can you, and anything I've mentioned can be proven by lads who reputations are much, much better than your's ,Corkman or Stopends in the working terrier world.

[Mixedgrill 704]

 

 

From reading above post from pd3 is it possible that buck/breay did breed close but weren't afraid to go outside if there was a better worker available,that they believed could improve on what they already had,and obviously these men were not kennel blind,so it would seem a bit of line breeding and a bit of worker to worker went into the the dogs they had,that and plenty of work but in front of there tykes and the best selected and bred from.

 

Smasher,

That was the point, I have only the highest respect for the Black dogs, dug over some excellent terriers from this line.

My interest was in where they came from, how the men who started the strain selected their breeding stock and perfected their line.

 

I put up the pedigrees from 3 men who are credited with the foundation stock.

Noticed a gap in the lined asked if anybody could fill it.

A case of a little knowledge looking for more knowledge. I will learn from anyone willing to part with information.

 

Have had PM's from men who know some of the history of this line and they are going to try and fill in the blanks.

Men who know Mr. Nuttall and his Son, have been in his yard and discussed the very lines shown here.

They also are not happy with the dog titled "Border Dog*" in the pedigree. and the empty spaces in that dogs history.

 

To learn form these legends we need to know their methods and what worked for them.

 

I will leave it at that. The Black dogs are not my specific interest, was more interested in the men who started them.

Don't really care what lads call them.

 

 

Stopend has more interest in protecting working terriers in Ireland than all of the people trying to tear him down

No matter how long it takes the truth will come out in the end.

Excuses for why lads walked away when terrierwork needed them sound lame at best.

That battle is over, you were there or you were not.

You can't go back now that terrierwork was protected.

 

Happy new year to everyone.

Last post on this thread from me.

P3D

P3D,

I know that that last paragraph was aimed at me.

First off, Stopend has no interest in the preservation of any type of working terrier.

He was a devoted Jack Russell swapper 2 years ago, last year he was asking lads to sell him black pups and now he has so called Cork white terriers that he got off a man who's terriers are well known for coming away, BUT, they must be breeding true to form because one came away after 40 minutes for him recently and refused to go back. The first ever words I had with Stopend was when I asked him to take down pics of a lurcher drawing. Now he thinks he's the patron saint of terrierwork.

If he loved terrierwork he (and yous) would have stepped aside because we all knew that most terriermen in N.I. wouldn't join as long as he was involved. You's all knew this at the time.

You, yourself can only contribute to any terrier conversation if it's something you got out of a book. There's something very Plummerish about you, but that to be expected from someone who got into terriers yesterday in his 50s.

As for terrierwork in it's hour of need.

You know for a fact that I had 5 meetings with the Junior Minister of Agriculture ,Shane McEntee (RIP) who office was in my village and that got us a meeting with the Ministry of Agriculture who explained to us that terrierwork was 100% SAFE with the up coming Animal Health and Welfare Bill.

This was before the IWTF was up and running so you's part time terrier men who we left behind CANNOT give yourselves any pats on the back for saving terrierwork at all.

So don't try and say anyone desserted the IWTF because along with myself some of the most respected terriermen from your county WALKED away from you and your dangerous sort, we didn't walk away from terrierwork.

I wont even go in to detail as to how you and your control freak mate nearly got terrierwork banned when you were asked not to contact certain people but you thought you knew it all. Terrierwork was within a hairs breath of being banned because of yous.

So, make all the snide remarks you want and I'll reply and I can even have disscussions on actual terierwork, can you, and anything I've mentioned can be proven by lads who reputations are much, much better than your's ,Corkman or Stopends in the working terrier world.