A Razors Edge

[pablo esc 1,598]

Anyone got a picture or info of the bitches Worry, Tar or Biddy (Biddie?) from Brian Nuttall's yard?

Would have been around 1965 to 1975.

used to be a man , Aw, around that time .he had a dog called ,spate ,and his stuff was off BRI .I believe the man was known and good dogs .

[Glyn..... 5,208]

Anyone got a picture or info of the bitches Worry, Tar or Biddy (Biddie?) from Brian Nuttall's yard?

Would have been around 1965 to 1975.

think biddy was from Roger West moorland I posted a photo Edited December 29, 2016 by Glyn.....

[p3d 879]

 

Anyone got a picture or info of the bitches Worry, Tar or Biddy (Biddie?) from Brian Nuttall's yard?

Would have been around 1965 to 1975.

think biddy was from Roger West moorland I posted a photo

 

Glyn...

Was that a bitch Biddy, which post did you put up the photo on?

P3D

[Glyn..... 5,208]

It's the post with lots of photos on lol

[p3d 879]

It's the post with lots of photos on lol

I'll take a look

[p3d 879]

Got it, Is this the same Biddy that appears in the Pedigree of Judy 1975?

I got the impression that Brian owned Biddy and brought the bitch to Breay's line stud dog.

 

[undertaker 830]

 

 

 

 

You fancy commenting on my last post Stopend? You've read it and you know it was you that was the representative that night. I never did tell them lads that you back stabbed them after the meeting but they'll read it on here anyway. That should be enough fact to keep you simmering over. Edited to add as for bloodlines given to start men out x amount of years ago that's another story. Pity you weren't gifted the same maybe you wouldn't be so bitter. Any of that I've seen and have some blood in my yard isn't lacking in anyway.

I genuinely never seen your post until I have read it there just now. By the way I haven't a clue who you are so I don't know what you heard me say about whoever if were giving it truthfully here...it was 2012 I personally only knew 4 people at that meet that's the folk I travelled down with the rest id only ever spoke to on fone or internet, I had at that time definitely never dug with any of them or yourself im quite sure or even really talked lines with? But it will be easy for you to know me because I presented myself forward and sat at a table and persevered with some other good men who know one ever knew only we stepped forward for something that most of us love and we were getting treated like idiots with the right to work terriers sweeped from under our feet as we all argue? If it wasn't for that you or Neil or anyone else wouldn't know me from adam . as for being bitter about black lines... you had me puzzled to fatman piped up and re jogged my memory... lol a man before I went away to work had a few good black dogs... when I came back he was still digging the same old dogs with no new blood..he didn't know anyone.. he heard about A.C. asked me could I make contact with him for him to try buy a pup... I said ill try... so I PMd him about 4 years ago, and he said he had no pups for sale...if he has the PM saved tell him to post I explained all to him in a PM... wasn't me looking a pup... and ive nowt to hide lol...and I don't even work dogs with that certain man anymore.

Now if we could get back to terriers.... glyn I meant you wrote what you were told and that's all anyone asks...

I do dig over blacks very regularly and there great wee dogs know there job and do it well... Ive also seen some great whites and there also great dogs what see the job through... and me myself personally have a preference for blacks/ chocs or any coloured terrier... but I prefer to see a white dog working it means the pool is still there lets be honest a lot of men work the blacks because in the most part that's the most popular consistent type out there doing it at the minute. rant over... its Christmas and out in the mornin

Stopend i dont know what your like at backfilling but by god your a good man to backpeddle,you asked for that pup,pups for yourself so why deny it,whats the big deal.

lol if he is backfi lling is as good as you at arse licking he be alright Edited December 30, 2016 by undertaker

[DogFox123 1,379]

What's in a name anyway.....

[Corkman 944]

When I started off, 40 years back lol there were lakeys mostly b and t but also red and grizzle, russells, borders and crossbreds. These were often very much like todays Patterdales, including chocolates Fells was a name brought in for Lakeys to include those that werent b and t. What people nowadays term Patterdales are what has evolved from these crossbred dogs over the last few decades imo.

Cheers, D.

Here is an image of one of Mr Nuttal's Patterdale terriers "Judy" from 1975.

 

_30_Judy 02.jpg

 

This is her pedigree.

 

_31_Judy's pedigree.jpg

 

Its just clear enough to make out Breays dogs, a few Borders, and .......

 

Save the image and zoom in on your computer. Maybe some of the lads who work black dogs can add other pedigrees from that era and shed light on the breeding of these great little dogs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO Dykos got it bang on page 4 of this thread.

 

Also the breeding chart posted by PD3 is very informative and a little bit of history in which Mr Nuttal clearly has identified the breed of terrier he produced as a "Patterdale" back in 1975 which was bred out of various strains. This maybe one of the first times the name "Patterdale" was documented by one of the strains founders as we know them today. Be interesting to know what Breay & Buck & Westmoreland, and b fore them called their types??

 

What's in a name? Good question, but dog men get fairly tetchy if you catagorise their dogs incorrectly or suggest there origins are made up of anything outside blacks and reds. More selective breeding techniques followed on from these early days to produce type(s). Even more recently we have a Stevens type terrier that is easily identified.

 

Interesting stuff.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Corkman

[Rat face 1,655]

My dad got nearly all his terriers off frank buck and knew the man well, just asked him and he can never remember him using the word Patterdale they just called them fell terriers because they was terriers that worked out on the fell

[fat man 4,741]

 

 

 

You fancy commenting on my last post Stopend? You've read it and you know it was you that was the representative that night. I never did tell them lads that you back stabbed them after the meeting but they'll read it on here anyway. That should be enough fact to keep you simmering over. Edited to add as for bloodlines given to start men out x amount of years ago that's another story. Pity you weren't gifted the same maybe you wouldn't be so bitter. Any of that I've seen and have some blood in my yard isn't lacking in anyway.

I genuinely never seen your post until I have read it there just now. By the way I haven't a clue who you are so I don't know what you heard me say about whoever if were giving it truthfully here...it was 2012 I personally only knew 4 people at that meet that's the folk I travelled down with the rest id only ever spoke to on fone or internet, I had at that time definitely never dug with any of them or yourself im quite sure or even really talked lines with? But it will be easy for you to know me because I presented myself forward and sat at a table and persevered with some other good men who know one ever knew only we stepped forward for something that most of us love and we were getting treated like idiots with the right to work terriers sweeped from under our feet as we all argue? If it wasn't for that you or Neil or anyone else wouldn't know me from adam . as for being bitter about black lines... you had me puzzled to fatman piped up and re jogged my memory... lol a man before I went away to work had a few good black dogs... when I came back he was still digging the same old dogs with no new blood..he didn't know anyone.. he heard about A.C. asked me could I make contact with him for him to try buy a pup... I said ill try... so I PMd him about 4 years ago, and he said he had no pups for sale...if he has the PM saved tell him to post I explained all to him in a PM... wasn't me looking a pup... and ive nowt to hide lol...and I don't even work dogs with that certain man anymore.

Now if we could get back to terriers.... glyn I meant you wrote what you were told and that's all anyone asks...

I do dig over blacks very regularly and there great wee dogs know there job and do it well... Ive also seen some great whites and there also great dogs what see the job through... and me myself personally have a preference for blacks/ chocs or any coloured terrier... but I prefer to see a white dog working it means the pool is still there lets be honest a lot of men work the blacks because in the most part that's the most popular consistent type out there doing it at the minute. rant over... its Christmas and out in the mornin

Stopend i dont know what your like at backfilling but by god your a good man to backpeddle,you asked for that pup,pups for yourself so why deny it,whats the big deal.

lol if he is backfi lling is as good as you at arse licking he be alright

 

That the best you can do.

[p3d 879]

What's in a name anyway.....

 

It is a great question, the answer is "not much" when the dog is in the ground.

But we are terrier men, more than anything probably dog men.

In general we are interested in anything to do with dogs, the name does not matter but IMO the breeding does.

 

The pedigree posted was from BN yard linked to a pedigree written by Mr Breay.

Possibly the only time he committed a pedigree to paper of his and Mr Bucks line

 

When we check a pedigree there are a couple of things we can do to check if it is authentic.

First divide the years on the pedigree by the generations, in this case (1975-1920 = 75 years. divided by 15 generations).

This gives us roughly 5 years between breeding each bitch. This would seem high until you check in detail.

Buck/Breay bred a bitch and then bred her with her nephew a lot of times. this would have taken 3 years for the bitch to be proven (at least)

and another 2/3 years for the nephew to be proven. That tally's with the 5 year span between breeding.

 

Also it was curious to me if the Breay/Buck line were closely inbreeding their dogs.

Where they did breed close generations (Blitz and Mick were full brothers) they also outcrossed in nearly every generation.

Usually to a stud dog from one of the hunt kennels but also bitches (The Orton and Tebay Bitch's)

 

They did not seem to mind mixing kennels either, for example if they kept going to one kennel you would assume they wanted a particular type.

 

Just found out that the Bitch Tanner was out of Mick (Full brother to Blitz) so the pedigree posted can have another 14 instances of the line added.

That will make 28 times that line appears back to the white terriers in 1920.

28 times is a lot and we have not finished yet.

It now is obvious why Mr Breay only needed to remember that particular line to write down for his and Bucks line.

He knew that it was used so many times, right back to 1920.

 

If a terrierman was going to continue the Breay/Buck line, should he outcross every generation like they did?

Or just inbreed the remaining dogs.

 

Also does anyone believe that Kipper / Border dog / Biddy could produce a Smooth coated dog like Judy?

 

That Border dog entry in Judys pedigree is unusual, if you are breeding a line form the Breay/Buck line,

would you not know a SMALL BIT about the new dog you were introducing into the line? (like where he came from)

[p3d 879]

Should have read;

 

When we check a pedigree there are a couple of things we can do to check if it is authentic.

First divide the years on the pedigree by the generations, in this case (1975-1920 = 55 years. divided by 15 generations).

This gives us roughly 4 years between breeding each bitch. This would seem high until you check in detail.

Buck/Breay bred a bitch and then bred her with her nephew a lot of times. this would have taken 2/3 years for the bitch to be proven (at least)

and another 2/3 years for the nephew to be proven. That tally's with the 4 year span between breeding.

[undertaker 830]

 

 

 

 

 

You fancy commenting on my last post Stopend? You've read it and you know it was you that was the representative that night. I never did tell them lads that you back stabbed them after the meeting but they'll read it on here anyway. That should be enough fact to keep you simmering over. Edited to add as for bloodlines given to start men out x amount of years ago that's another story. Pity you weren't gifted the same maybe you wouldn't be so bitter. Any of that I've seen and have some blood in my yard isn't lacking in anyway.

I genuinely never seen your post until I have read it there just now. By the way I haven't a clue who you are so I don't know what you heard me say about whoever if were giving it truthfully here...it was 2012 I personally only knew 4 people at that meet that's the folk I travelled down with the rest id only ever spoke to on fone or internet, I had at that time definitely never dug with any of them or yourself im quite sure or even really talked lines with? But it will be easy for you to know me because I presented myself forward and sat at a table and persevered with some other good men who know one ever knew only we stepped forward for something that most of us love and we were getting treated like idiots with the right to work terriers sweeped from under our feet as we all argue? If it wasn't for that you or Neil or anyone else wouldn't know me from adam . as for being bitter about black lines... you had me puzzled to fatman piped up and re jogged my memory... lol a man before I went away to work had a few good black dogs... when I came back he was still digging the same old dogs with no new blood..he didn't know anyone.. he heard about A.C. asked me could I make contact with him for him to try buy a pup... I said ill try... so I PMd him about 4 years ago, and he said he had no pups for sale...if he has the PM saved tell him to post I explained all to him in a PM... wasn't me looking a pup... and ive nowt to hide lol...and I don't even work dogs with that certain man anymore.

Now if we could get back to terriers.... glyn I meant you wrote what you were told and that's all anyone asks...

I do dig over blacks very regularly and there great wee dogs know there job and do it well... Ive also seen some great whites and there also great dogs what see the job through... and me myself personally have a preference for blacks/ chocs or any coloured terrier... but I prefer to see a white dog working it means the pool is still there lets be honest a lot of men work the blacks because in the most part that's the most popular consistent type out there doing it at the minute. rant over... its Christmas and out in the mornin

Stopend i dont know what your like at backfilling but by god your a good man to backpeddle,you asked for that pup,pups for yourself so why deny it,whats the big deal.

lol if he is backfi lling is as good as you at arse licking he be alright

That the best you can do.

u and Cooney are nothing more than keyboard warriors ye think ye can say what ye like about lads on here. I dont think there is a post on here that ye havnt posted on ye try to bully anyone that answers ye.ifor one dont give two fucks for ye

[danny300 2,240]

 

 

 

 

Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?

lol i told you something would be made up and there it is you can read you like the rubbish you write in books... ok who was i supposedly trying to buy black pups of last year then walter mitty? Tell me! The man from the north who you got yours off only got into terriers when the men who i dig with took him out he was in his 20s ffs.. hes 50 now if even lol... if any of you watched the wheaten programme on tg4 big terry is on it speaking about wheatens.. i had my first dig with him my father and cousin at 9 years of age..i had my last dig with him 4 weeks ago.. so who am i supposed to have tried to buy a patterdale off chunk??

LOL, every part of that post is either a lie or an untruth.

Daniel is right ,lets not ruin a good thread where Glyn is giving the truth on working lines that he's learned from experience and P3D has learned from books.

I'll leave it at that as it's the season of good will.

 

 

LOL, Chunk, good one, LOL. Say that to my face next time we meet.

 

 

 

To all those true working terriermen, good wishes to you and your loved ones.

Neil,

You don't know me, we only met for a short time

But I know about you from what happened at the beginning of the I.W.T.F.

When the pressure came on and terrierwork needed men to stand shoulder to shoulder, we turned around and you were gone.

You choose sides with your NARGC and Mounted hunt buddies. It was the best thing that happened to be honest.

Could not stick another minute in your company, we were glad to be rid of you.

The darkest place in our memories is reserved for the people who bolted when the fight started.

 

Not the time or place here. The truth will come out in time. (Remember we kept all the emails).

Have a great Christmas to everyone.

P3D

 

PS. sorry lads for diverting from the post, only so much a person can take.

Back to topic.

There must have been a few people turned there backs on the iwtt then. I went to one of there first meetings as I was genuinely interested and willing to support them. Unfortunately at that meeting was two men I have done a bit with in the past and I would have plenty of time for. When they left the meeting they hadn't got the door closed behind them when the iwtf representative present started talking about them behind there backs trying to belittle them. Very unprofessional if you ask me. So I didn't hang about long after that. Then came the phone calls looking me to join etc. and when I queried a few things regarding terrierwork I was practically told I can't do this or that, i have to do it this way etc. or I wouldn't be welcome in the federation and so on. So after thinking about what went on and how someone I didn't really know was trying to tell me how I should go about working my terriers even though I've been doing it myself for 20 years without any problem or issues and my dogs don't spew after 40 mins! Then I came to the conclusion it wasn't for me and that was that. So shoulder to shoulder my bollocks.

 

Same happened at a meeting in cork General alot of decent terriermen walk out of the meeting