A Razors Edge

[p3d 879]

 

Here is an image of one of Mr Nuttal's Patterdale terriers "Judy" from 1975.

 

_30_Judy 02.jpg

 

This is her pedigree.

 

_31_Judy's pedigree.jpg

 

Its just clear enough to make out Breays dogs, a few Borders, and .......

 

Save the image and zoom in on your computer. Maybe some of the lads who work black dogs can add other pedigrees from that era and shed light on the breeding of these great little dogs.

these are her parents

 

Glyn....

 

Great photo. do you know who were the Border Dog* on Top and Bottom and Border Bitch in the bottom half of the pedigree?

Unusual that the Border Dog* pedigree is unknown, you would think that the Borders would be the easiest to trace.

This in a pedigree would normally indicate that

1; The dog was from parents that were not known (then it was a total outcross, chance bred) OR

2; The dog was from parents that the Breeder Did NOT want to know (champion show dogs in the pedigree, still an outcross.

 

Just makes you wonder at the "Pure Patterdale Brigade" and how much they know of their own strain.

 

This would all be just a mystery, BUT Mr Nuttall is still alive, we can get answers.......if we want to.

 

These are great working terriers and their history should be clarified.

Learning from the likes of Breay,Park and Nuptial's of their day can only help us to continue the work they started.

 

 

 

[neil cooney 10,416]

Chocs yeah what about the blue ones ?? LOL

I always considered blues to come from Lakeland / Black and Tan lines much like the way the chocolate came from the black terriers.

At least the couple of blue families I've known did anyway.

[Glyn..... 5,208]

na

Edited December 30, 2016 by Glyn.....

[p3d 879]

p3d i did ask him years ago, and in a round about way i was told breeding unknown , right up until the 70's from what i could gather there where a few lines of pure/ pure-ish un-reg (non-kc)border lines around more so 40-50's the type described by Lucus in his book a lot of this blood was folded in to the blacks because although as good a worker as the fells these border terrier where just more laid back both with other dogs and people , but the gene pools had become to limited to stay pure and with a huge gap already developed between working and show borders much of the working blood was mixed in to the new workers on the block

Brian's early stuff was a mishmash of working blood it wasn't until he got a bitch from RW and then made use of Breay/Buck blood line he started on his line breeding , so if you like by the time Penny and Punch came along they would be 3/4 Breay/Buck the rest bits of border bits of pits and whites, i haven't chatted with him for 15 years but he spent hours at my house at one time us chatting terriers and his little grandson playing with my transformers i didn't have the heart to take them off him (my lads and out grown them )so he left with them and i was left with sheets of photo copied photo's and a 4 hour taped interview

 

Glyn...

Great post, thats the type of history the strain needs, up close and personal.

Hats off to you.

[ziggy 619]

Crackin topic lads

[p3d 879]

Is the cork dog The short broken coated type? I saw a few at moate this summer, anyone off here?

ro284,

The Cork white line is a strain of Working Russell, hard to describe the type.

Everything from strong Bull/russell smooths to Small wire haired terriers. Not a breed more a strain of workers.

In general these are rough looking dogs, even at Moate its hard to see these dogs excel in the show ring.

Even at a working dog day they do not generally show well.

You have to see them work to appreciate the quality.

 

Prick ears, one or both, Rose ears, drop ears like a fox terrier, tall, short, they come in all shapes and sizes.

The white terriers in Ireland have been hunted for centuries just like in the UK.

Long before the Reverend Russell or Captain Edwardes got names for themselves there were terriermen hunting with terriers underground.

 

The reason that Cork became strong in white terriers IMO is that there is a large number of quality kennels in this area.

By quality kennels I mean kennels where the standard is set very high for the dogs. Tested to the limit.

 

Cork and Munster (the county in Ireland where Cork is the Capital ) has the highest number of Harrier packs.

Hunting has always been a strong tradition in this area. There are plenty of guys on here with quality White terriers of this strain.

Right now there are kennels up in the North which are having good success with this line as well.

 

The reason that the Cork area did not get consumed by the Black terrier craze, just my opinion but they had

good terriers at the time, if its not broken don't try to fix it.

 

 

 

 

 

[gnipper 6,487]

Was it more recently that the Levi Oakes blood was used?

[jiggy 3,209]

 

Is the cork dog The short broken coated type? I saw a few at moate this summer, anyone off here?

ro284,

The Cork white line is a strain of Working Russell, hard to describe the type.

Everything from strong Bull/russell smooths to Small wire haired terriers. Not a breed more a strain of workers.

In general these are rough looking dogs, even at Moate its hard to see these dogs excel in the show ring.

Even at a working dog day they do not generally show well.

You have to see them work to appreciate the quality.

 

Prick ears, one or both, Rose ears, drop ears like a fox terrier, tall, short, they come in all shapes and sizes.

The white terriers in Ireland have been hunted for centuries just like in the UK.

Long before the Reverend Russell or Captain Edwardes got names for themselves there were terriermen hunting with terriers underground.

 

The reason that Cork became strong in white terriers IMO is that there is a large number of quality kennels in this area.

By quality kennels I mean kennels where the standard is set very high for the dogs. Tested to the limit.

 

Cork and Munster (the county in Ireland where Cork is the Capital ) has the highest number of Harrier packs.

Hunting has always been a strong tradition in this area. There are plenty of guys on here with quality White terriers of this strain.

Right now there are kennels up in the North which are having good success with this line as well.

 

The reason that the Cork area did not get consumed by the Black terrier craze, just my opinion but they had

good terriers at the time, if its not broken don't try to fix it.

 

 

 

 

[jiggy 3,209]

Cork is the capital ha ha geography wasn't your strong point in school but it is nice that you believe that it is ?

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

Think he was joking

[jiggy 3,209]

Think he was joking

I know he was joking but they are very proud people down in that county and would like it to be true ?

[stop.end 4,082]

Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?

lol i told you something would be made up and there it is you can read you like the rubbish you write in books... ok who was i supposedly trying to buy black pups of last year then walter mitty? Tell me! The man from the north who you got yours off only got into terriers when the men who i dig with took him out he was in his 20s ffs.. hes 50 now if even lol... if any of you watched the wheaten programme on tg4 big terry is on it speaking about wheatens.. i had my first dig with him my father and cousin at 9 years of age..i had my last dig with him 4 weeks ago.. so who am i supposed to have tried to buy a patterdale off chunk??

[Daniel cain 45,653]

Good thread this..let's not spoil it..You pair should meet up and get some dirt on the bank..you may even get along and do it againgood will to one and all.atb dc

[steve t 935]

 

Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?

lol i told you something would be made up and there it is you can read you like the rubbish you write in books... ok who was i supposedly trying to buy black pups of last year then walter mitty? Tell me! The man from the north who you got yours off only got into terriers when the men who i dig with took him out he was in his 20s ffs.. hes 50 now if even lol... if any of you watched the wheaten programme on tg4 big terry is on it speaking about wheatens.. i had my first dig with him my father and cousin at 9 years of age..i had my last dig with him 4 weeks ago.. so who am i supposed to have tried to buy a patterdale off chunk??

 

Stopend, r u trying to say your better than someone cos a man u dig with started another man thirty years ago, not sure I follow?

[neil cooney 10,416]

 

Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?

lol i told you something would be made up and there it is you can read you like the rubbish you write in books... ok who was i supposedly trying to buy black pups of last year then walter mitty? Tell me! The man from the north who you got yours off only got into terriers when the men who i dig with took him out he was in his 20s ffs.. hes 50 now if even lol... if any of you watched the wheaten programme on tg4 big terry is on it speaking about wheatens.. i had my first dig with him my father and cousin at 9 years of age..i had my last dig with him 4 weeks ago.. so who am i supposed to have tried to buy a patterdale off chunk??

 

LOL, every part of that post is either a lie or an untruth.

Daniel is right ,lets not ruin a good thread where Glyn is giving the truth on working lines that he's learned from experience and P3D has learned from books.

I'll leave it at that as it's the season of good will.

 

 

LOL, Chunk, good one, LOL. Say that to my face next time we meet.

 

 

 

To all those true working terriermen, good wishes to you and your loved ones.