A Razors Edge

[neil cooney 10,416]

 

 

A lot of talk disagreement about game,hard or baying terriers which is only normal.But what about origin keeping faith with the style a lot of lines strains or even breeds were bred to work in,magority of lads would expect a Russel to be a Bayer some pushier than others but is an out and out baying patterdale,lakeland or even border terrier a good example of its breed? .The law has changed life in general is very different but do we lay down hundreds of years of tradition to please the law ?.Do we reject the men that put so much time and effort into producing those breeds of game hard terriers .

The last few replies to your question are about what lads prefer nowadays but doesn't answer your question about who strives to breed or keep a type that is the same as the same type many, many years ago.

IMO only a few men can honestly put their hands on their hearts and say they do and those men are a few Jack Russell breeders and a few Fell breeders.

Only those Jack Russell breeders who strive for a JRT who'll work all quarry under ground using it's voice as it's greatest asset and only those Fell breeders who still use a hard terriers to kill or shift foxes from hard to reach places can say they've stayed loyal to the old standard. It doesn't matter if the terrier is wearing a locator collar or not, we're talking style and the terrier doesn't know what the collar is for.

 

The rest of us have moved with the times.

 

Most JRT breeders nowaday IMO are either bloody good terriermen or complete messers.

Border and Bedlington breeders are mostly money men and dreamers.

And breeders of the Fell / Lakeland types tend to be all of the above but IMO most nowadays who're serious about digging to their terriers use the Fell types and of the few types left that actually do work IMO the Fell is the one that has changed in it's style of work the most and IMO this is because those who take this type seriously also take their terrierwork seriously.

JMHO but the proof is in the pudding.

so what your saying is if you keep fell types your in the top terrier league

Well that's me in with a chance LOL

But you do like to try and upset other terrier breeders ie Russell men the others I can't remember seeing any good ones myself

 

Nope, just telling it as it is.

It's easy to say that those most serious about their terrierwork keep Fells because that's the truth.

The only people I'd say that would be upset about me saying that Border and Bedlington owners are money men and dreamers are Border and Bedlington owners. Their adds and absence in the field prove this.

I said that those who work JRTs are either bloody good terriermen or messers.

Regarding messers, the Jack Russell as a rule allow's itself to work along side other terriers (as a rule) and there's plenty of JRT fans out there who account for large amounts of game by doubling and trebling up their terriers. IMO that's a hard thing to get away with with the Fell type.

Regarding JRT owners being bloody good terriermen ?

First of all to consistently breed good single handed Russells that would work to the standard of 20 or 30 years ago is a hard thing to achieve.

Also, because of the way a Jack Russell should work IMO it takes a good standard of terrierman to work the terrier from start to finish on a dig, especially the finish. The Fell type can often make things handy at the end but IMO a terrierman who works out and out bayers really does have to know his stuff at the end when it comes to handling, finishing things and making sure it's empty before backfilling.

Some of the best terriermen I ever seen were Jack Russell fanciers. They mightn't have had great terriers but they were aces around a dig.

Some will disagree but it's JMHO.

[Kaizer Sozĕ 266]

 

 

 

A lot of talk disagreement about game,hard or baying terriers which is only normal.But what about origin keeping faith with the style a lot of lines strains or even breeds were bred to work in,magority of lads would expect a Russel to be a Bayer some pushier than others but is an out and out baying patterdale,lakeland or even border terrier a good example of its breed? .The law has changed life in general is very different but do we lay down hundreds of years of tradition to please the law ?.Do we reject the men that put so much time and effort into producing those breeds of game hard terriers .

 

The last few replies to your question are about what lads prefer nowadays but doesn't answer your question about who strives to breed or keep a type that is the same as the same type many, many years ago.

IMO only a few men can honestly put their hands on their hearts and say they do and those men are a few Jack Russell breeders and a few Fell breeders.

Only those Jack Russell breeders who strive for a JRT who'll work all quarry under ground using it's voice as it's greatest asset and only those Fell breeders who still use a hard terriers to kill or shift foxes from hard to reach places can say they've stayed loyal to the old standard. It doesn't matter if the terrier is wearing a locator collar or not, we're talking style and the terrier doesn't know what the collar is for.

 

The rest of us have moved with the times.

 

Most JRT breeders nowaday IMO are either bloody good terriermen or complete messers.

Border and Bedlington breeders are mostly money men and dreamers.

And breeders of the Fell / Lakeland types tend to be all of the above but IMO most nowadays who're serious about digging to their terriers use the Fell types and of the few types left that actually do work IMO the Fell is the one that has changed in it's style of work the most and IMO this is because those who take this type seriously also take their terrierwork seriously.

JMHO but the proof is in the pudding.

so what your saying is if you keep fell types your in the top terrier league

Well that's me in with a chance LOL

But you do like to try and upset other terrier breeders ie Russell men the others I can't remember seeing any good ones myself

Nope, just telling it as it is.

It's easy to say that those most serious about their terrierwork keep Fells because that's the truth.

The only people I'd say that would be upset about me saying that Border and Bedlington owners are money men and dreamers are Border and Bedlington owners. Their adds and absence in the field prove this.

I said that those who work JRTs are either bloody good terriermen or messers.

Regarding messers, the Jack Russell as a rule allow's itself to work along side other terriers (as a rule) and there's plenty of JRT fans out there who account for large amounts of game by doubling and trebling up their terriers. IMO that's a hard thing to get away with with the Fell type.

Regarding JRT owners being bloody good terriermen ?

First of all to consistently breed good single handed Russells that would work to the standard of 20 or 30 years ago is a hard thing to achieve.

Also, because of the way a Jack Russell should work IMO it takes a good standard of terrierman to work the terrier from start to finish on a dig, especially the finish. The Fell type can often make things handy at the end but IMO a terrierman who works out and out bayers really does have to know his stuff at the end when it comes to handling, finishing things and making sure it's empty before backfilling.

Some of the best terriermen I ever seen were Jack Russell fanciers. They mightn't have had great terriers but they were aces around a dig.

Some will disagree but it's JMHO.

That may be the case if you consider the original jack russell to be a stand back bayer type. I could be wrong as Im no historian but I believe the old style russell/white terriers were like the type I just described "Game sounders". Even the game red fell chowt faced rock (key stud in fell terrier history) described in Plummers fell terrier book had white terriers from the Ilfracombe badger digging club in his blood. Terriers that were described as "Game". Many fell/lakelands/Patterdales have white blood flowing through their veins...

[Kaizer Sozĕ 266]

Maybe its the strain of white terrier you've experienced! Its matters not the colour of the breed in question...its the strain thats important!

[neil cooney 10,416]

Kaiser, the subject of this thread is about those who still strive for terriers that work very close to the original standards.

To talk about how terriers work and are worked today is a different subject.

As I've said before that IMO no terrier has changed it's style as much as the black type and I also believe that there's better terriers nowadays than in any other time in history. Despite what the romantics might tell us.

[Rat face 1,655]

What about folk that want/need to keep bayers, bolters, call em what you will, if everybody breeds hardest to hardest are folk that need bayers just ment to keep getting pups off hard dog over hard bitch an hope that it turns out a bayer? Maybe sit an wait till pups are 18 month, 2 years old to see what style they make??

By all means breed from a bayer if that's what your after bud.end of the day its each to there own. But if you carry on breeding the same way year after year you would end up with poor dogs. Just my opinion tho

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

 

 

 

 

A lot of talk disagreement about game,hard or baying terriers which is only normal.But what about origin keeping faith with the style a lot of lines strains or even breeds were bred to work in,magority of lads would expect a Russel to be a Bayer some pushier than others but is an out and out baying patterdale,lakeland or even border terrier a good example of its breed? .The law has changed life in general is very different but do we lay down hundreds of years of tradition to please the law ?.Do we reject the men that put so much time and effort into producing those breeds of game hard terriers .

The last few replies to your question are about what lads prefer nowadays but doesn't answer your question about who strives to breed or keep a type that is the same as the same type many, many years ago.

IMO only a few men can honestly put their hands on their hearts and say they do and those men are a few Jack Russell breeders and a few Fell breeders.

Only those Jack Russell breeders who strive for a JRT who'll work all quarry under ground using it's voice as it's greatest asset and only those Fell breeders who still use a hard terriers to kill or shift foxes from hard to reach places can say they've stayed loyal to the old standard. It doesn't matter if the terrier is wearing a locator collar or not, we're talking style and the terrier doesn't know what the collar is for.

 

The rest of us have moved with the times.

 

Most JRT breeders nowaday IMO are either bloody good terriermen or complete messers.

Border and Bedlington breeders are mostly money men and dreamers.

And breeders of the Fell / Lakeland types tend to be all of the above but IMO most nowadays who're serious about digging to their terriers use the Fell types and of the few types left that actually do work IMO the Fell is the one that has changed in it's style of work the most and IMO this is because those who take this type seriously also take their terrierwork seriously.

JMHO but the proof is in the pudding.

so what your saying is if you keep fell types your in the top terrier league

Well that's me in with a chance LOL

But you do like to try and upset other terrier breeders ie Russell men the others I can't remember seeing any good ones myself

Nope, just telling it as it is.

It's easy to say that those most serious about their terrierwork keep Fells because that's the truth.

The only people I'd say that would be upset about me saying that Border and Bedlington owners are money men and dreamers are Border and Bedlington owners. Their adds and absence in the field prove this.

I said that those who work JRTs are either bloody good terriermen or messers.

Regarding messers, the Jack Russell as a rule allow's itself to work along side other terriers (as a rule) and there's plenty of JRT fans out there who account for large amounts of game by doubling and trebling up their terriers. IMO that's a hard thing to get away with with the Fell type.

Regarding JRT owners being bloody good terriermen ?

First of all to consistently breed good single handed Russells that would work to the standard of 20 or 30 years ago is a hard thing to achieve.

Also, because of the way a Jack Russell should work IMO it takes a good standard of terrierman to work the terrier from start to finish on a dig, especially the finish. The Fell type can often make things handy at the end but IMO a terrierman who works out and out bayers really does have to know his stuff at the end when it comes to handling, finishing things and making sure it's empty before backfilling.

Some of the best terriermen I ever seen were Jack Russell fanciers. They mightn't have had great terriers but they were aces around a dig.

Some will disagree but it's JMHO.

That may be the case if you consider the original jack russell to be a stand back bayer type. I could be wrong as Im no historian but I believe the old style russell/white terriers were like the type I just described "Game sounders". Even the game red fell chowt faced rock (key stud in fell terrier history) described in Plummers fell terrier book had white terriers from the Ilfracombe badger digging club in his blood. Terriers that were described as "Game". Many fell/lakelands/Patterdales have white blood flowing through their veins...

What your missing mate ,is that the standard back then for white dogs at least was based on more than one dog in a dig ,sometimes many more and those not getting the sharp end could do no more than bay their hearts out .History is one thing but doesn't make it the right way .Like Neil says ,todays terriers of all breeds working are better than their predicesors for the simple fact that we value single handed workers (or should).Being of the age I am ,I can only base the history of what I first saw in the black dogs with my own eyes and I can honestly say there hasnt been much change up until a few years back and there's still plenty about that work the same as that first dig I saw in the chalk .I think the history of terriers as in many things has been romantisiced by writers of books over the years .The old boy who took me under his wing said the dogs had worked same way for his lifetime and lived long enough to see there was no change

[Mixedgrill 704]

Kaiser, the subject of this thread is about those who still strive for terriers that work very close to the original standards.

To talk about how terriers work and are worked today is a different subject.

As I've said before that IMO no terrier has changed it's style as much as the black type and I also believe that there's better terriers nowadays than in any other time in history. Despite what the romantics might tell us.

seen your one of are older romantics in the game in what decade did change start to develop ie single handed terrier work

[dillydog 8,463]

I'm old enough to have seen the change, in the eighties every single terrier man I saw worked doubled up. I could name some big names but I won't, history is just that. When I started out doing my own thing I heard through the grapevine about a few that had higher standards, better dogs and I tried to conduct myself in the same vein.

I can't prove things are better and terriers are better but I know from personal experience that the vast majority of terriers are light years ahead of their ancestors

[Kaizer Sozĕ 266]

As I say Im no historian & I do know there was a lot of doubling up in the distant past, but I wouldnt say this was just a white dog issue. The famous tale/song of the 2 lakies/fell terriers Bear & Grip doubled up & lost to ground together!?????

[dillydog 8,463]

I wouldn't say it was a line, type or breed thing, more a lack of faith on the part of the user.

The dogs of different standards have become more of the norm, doubling up may still go on but it's become unacceptable.

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

I wouldn't say it was a line, type or breed thing, more a lack of faith on the part of the user.

The dogs of different standards have become more of the norm, doubling up may still go on but it's become unacceptable.

In my youth i used to get about with a few lads who used to double all the time and one thing I remember was that on the breakthrough it was always same dog up with quarry ,how substandard can it get for the rest to be behind every time.That dog up front wouldn't stay solo though without the back up .Some pro terrier men were notorious for it years ago and no doubt it still happens today for reasons they try to justify .Says way more about the man if he sees his terriers as individual masters of their game and accepts only the real deal ,single handed workers that stay til dug to ,whatever the style .

[Onlyworkmatters 1,584]

I was very lucky as the lads I started with early 80s used a single terrier to ground, all around at the time nearly everyone was doubling up that I knew.

[dillydog 8,463]

There's still at least one terrier man I know of that uses more than one, he's an embarrassment to the game, he had three in on a tiny little place last season.

[Mixedgrill 704]

I can't remember the last time I seen it done but there's a few times I've been in different companies hunting and seen so called great terriers fail in earths that pups should be digging out of and some of the reasons why make me believe that doubling up was the next port of call only we was in there company

[Mixedgrill 704]

But who on here guilty of doing it lol