Should Staffs Be Banned ?

[shepp 2,285]

 

Had my first one 11yrs and the second one 13yrs

 

had no issues with them both loved the kids and grandkids to bits

 

they could do any thing to them and they would just lay there and roll over lol

 

was at the park one day and this lad came in with his doberman and rock wiler standing there with his bomber jacket and his doc martin boots and smirking he let them off and they came running for one of my staffs but my mate who i was talking to little terrier went running to them yapping as they do they both turned tail and ran back to there owner you should of seen his face lol

 

Its not just staffs other breeds can be just as dangerous

 

its the way there brought up

 

my two were loved and all ways around kids from an early age

 

but even loved and well brought up dogs of any breed can turn for what ever reason

 

broke my heart when i got them both pts as the big c got them both in there back end

 

thats it for me and the wife no more for us of any breed

 

here is a pic of the last one .

 

My heart go,s out to the mother at the end of the day she has still lost a son

 

RIP YOUNG ONE RIP

 

ATVBMAC

 

 

 

You can't fool us Mac - that's a badger

Mac probably couldn't understand why it spent all it's time foraging for earth worms lol

[bigmac 97kt 13,808]

 

 

Had my first one 11yrs and the second one 13yrs

 

had no issues with them both loved the kids and grandkids to bits

 

they could do any thing to them and they would just lay there and roll over lol

 

was at the park one day and this lad came in with his doberman and rock wiler standing there with his bomber jacket and his doc martin boots and smirking he let them off and they came running for one of my staffs but my mate who i was talking to little terrier went running to them yapping as they do they both turned tail and ran back to there owner you should of seen his face lol

 

Its not just staffs other breeds can be just as dangerous

 

its the way there brought up

 

my two were loved and all ways around kids from an early age

 

but even loved and well brought up dogs of any breed can turn for what ever reason

 

broke my heart when i got them both pts as the big c got them both in there back end

 

thats it for me and the wife no more for us of any breed

 

here is a pic of the last one .

 

My heart go,s out to the mother at the end of the day she has still lost a son

 

RIP YOUNG ONE RIP

 

ATVBMAC

 

 

 

You can't fool us Mac - that's a badger

Mac probably couldn't understand why it spent all it's time foraging for earth worms lol

 

Little fecker was fed better than me lol

 

I sat down to pie and chips he had steak wtf :laugh:

 

atvbmac :thumbs:

[gnasher16 30,441]

Casso you seem to of gone off in a different direction and to be honest i don't disagree with anything you have said barring your first line.

 

" The fact that a dog is trainable at all is because it is a pack animal !! "

 

No i completely disagree.... its not because its a pack animal its because its domesticated.....a Wolf is a pack animal could you train a Wolf ?....this daft theory that dogs will recognise a lack of responsibility and leadership and allow us to step into the role of pack leader is laughable......the strategy of " a pack " is to stay together in family groups to hunt,survival being based on peaceful social bonds with each other and conserving energy for the hunt which will result in a social hierarchy being formed through play and behaviour bla bla bla

 

Domestic dogs are dependant on food from humans for their day to day survival because their instinct for survival has been adapted to live in mixed species groups ( with humans ) .......social hierarchy in wild animals is natural and resource based its not just done through submission and dominance the way a pack of dogs forced to live together may form a social group.....the fact that a dog doesnt recognise that us dopey humans cant scavenge for food particularly well yet are still unwilling to challenge our leadership is proof alone that dogs do not maintain any pack instinct whatsoever and therefore match the profile for non pack animals perfectly.

 

Domestic dogs dont use challenge and threat to communicate with us when they are unhappy they use the thousands of years of adapting to interact with us in a social way .....its because they left " pack life " behind all them years ago that allows them to do this rather than use pack instinct to say " f**k you useless im taking over this pack you are incapable of providing for my needs "

 

Again,im not saying im right its just the conclusions ive arrived at in my own mind over time.....cheers.

Edited October 19, 2016 by gnasher16

[Casso 1,261]

Casso you seem to of gone off in a different direction and to be honest i don't disagree with anything you have said barring your first line.

 

" The fact that a dog is trainable at all is because it is a pack animal !! "

 

No i completely disagree.... its not because its a pack animal its because its domesticated.....a Wolf is a pack animal could you train a Wolf ?....this daft theory that dogs will recognise a lack of responsibility and leadership and allow us to step into the role of pack leader is laughable......the strategy of " a pack " is to stay together in family groups to hunt,survival being based on peaceful social bonds with each other and conserving energy for the hunt which will result in a social hierarchy being formed through play and behaviour bla bla bla

 

Domestic dogs are dependant on food from humans for their day to day survival because their instinct for survival has been adapted to live in mixed species groups ( with humans ) .......social hierarchy in wild animals is natural and resource based its not just done through submission and dominance the way a pack of dogs forced to live together may form a social group.....the fact that a dog doesnt recognise that us dopey humans cant scavenge for food particularly well yet are still unwilling to challenge our leadership is proof alone that dogs do not maintain any pack instinct whatsoever and therefore match the profile for non pack animals perfectly.

 

Domestic dogs dont use challenge and threat to communicate with us when they are unhappy they use the thousands of years of adapting to interact with us in a social way .....its because they left " pack life " behind all them years ago that allows them to do this rather than use pack instinct to say " f**k you useless im taking over this pack you are incapable of providing for my needs "

 

Again,im not saying im right its just the conclusions ive arrived at in my own mind over time.....cheers.

What have ya gone and rooted up now ?

This whole site is a testament that dogs(Domesticated) not Wolves (Wild) are an animal drawn to hunt with others thereby creating a social bond in doing so

 

Let me break this down , there is a bird called a Harris hawk in the wild it hunts in groups , that is a fairly unique system for a bird of prey but because of this social aspect it has become a real bird of choice for a lot of falconers around the globe in a relatively short space of time , its social element has got zero to do with domestication and lots to do with its hunting habits ..

 

Try a cat mate , it's domesticated it's also a predator , which fulfills its trainability but it's generally not a social hunter but that won't bother you because according to you that don't matter

[WILF 47,547]

Maybe the question (then) is not can bull breeds and mastives etc be safely brought into a family situation but rather how many many people would be truly capable of doing it with very minimal risk?

 

My ideas would be, not many.

[mackay 3,400]

Check gumtree, a shithole of a site to sell a dog if there ever was one.

Every second dog for sale is a bull type, very sad actually.

It's an education just looking through them and some of them defy belief.

The classic I read today, bulldog bitch for sale, taken as part exchange against a pup.

If ever a breed/type of dog was abused and betrayed by manky owners it's the bull dog.

[terryd 8,603]

the humble lurcher can't be far behind. Look on fb the poor sods change hands at the drop of hat

[scothunter 12,609]

Some people shouldn't be allowed to even keep a goldfish.

[Lusitano 294]

No breed should be banned! But certain individuals should be banned from owning any kind of dog, especially bull breeds...

[gnasher16 30,441]

 

Casso you seem to of gone off in a different direction and to be honest i don't disagree with anything you have said barring your first line.

 

" The fact that a dog is trainable at all is because it is a pack animal !! "

 

No i completely disagree.... its not because its a pack animal its because its domesticated.....a Wolf is a pack animal could you train a Wolf ?....this daft theory that dogs will recognise a lack of responsibility and leadership and allow us to step into the role of pack leader is laughable......the strategy of " a pack " is to stay together in family groups to hunt,survival being based on peaceful social bonds with each other and conserving energy for the hunt which will result in a social hierarchy being formed through play and behaviour bla bla bla

 

Domestic dogs are dependant on food from humans for their day to day survival because their instinct for survival has been adapted to live in mixed species groups ( with humans ) .......social hierarchy in wild animals is natural and resource based its not just done through submission and dominance the way a pack of dogs forced to live together may form a social group.....the fact that a dog doesnt recognise that us dopey humans cant scavenge for food particularly well yet are still unwilling to challenge our leadership is proof alone that dogs do not maintain any pack instinct whatsoever and therefore match the profile for non pack animals perfectly.

 

Domestic dogs dont use challenge and threat to communicate with us when they are unhappy they use the thousands of years of adapting to interact with us in a social way .....its because they left " pack life " behind all them years ago that allows them to do this rather than use pack instinct to say " f**k you useless im taking over this pack you are incapable of providing for my needs "

 

Again,im not saying im right its just the conclusions ive arrived at in my own mind over time.....cheers.

What have ya gone and rooted up now ?

This whole site is a testament that dogs(Domesticated) not Wolves (Wild) are an animal drawn to hunt with others thereby creating a social bond in doing so

 

Let me break this down , there is a bird called a Harris hawk in the wild it hunts in groups , that is a fairly unique system for a bird of prey but because of this social aspect it has become a real bird of choice for a lot of falconers around the globe in a relatively short space of time , its social element has got zero to do with domestication and lots to do with its hunting habits ..

 

Try a cat mate , it's domesticated it's also a predator , which fulfills its trainability but it's generally not a social hunter but that won't bother you because according to you that don't matter

 

Why do you keep using other animals to try to prove that dogs still retain " pack instinct " ?.......the only reason i mentioned a Wolf is because your theory that dogs are trainable because they are pack animals suggests that a Wolf should therefore be trainable ?.......stick to dogs and explain to me what behaviour a dog shows in everyday life that is the same as what a pack animal shows.......me i dont see anything at all infact everything i see in dogs tells me that pack life has been left behind long ago.

[Casso 1,261]

 

 

 

Casso you seem to of gone off in a different direction and to be honest i don't disagree with anything you have said barring your first line.

 

" The fact that a dog is trainable at all is because it is a pack animal !! "

 

No i completely disagree.... its not because its a pack animal its because its domesticated.....a Wolf is a pack animal could you train a Wolf ?....this daft theory that dogs will recognise a lack of responsibility and leadership and allow us to step into the role of pack leader is laughable......the strategy of " a pack " is to stay together in family groups to hunt,survival being based on peaceful social bonds with each other and conserving energy for the hunt which will result in a social hierarchy being formed through play and behaviour bla bla bla

 

Domestic dogs are dependant on food from humans for their day to day survival because their instinct for survival has been adapted to live in mixed species groups ( with humans ) .......social hierarchy in wild animals is natural and resource based its not just done through submission and dominance the way a pack of dogs forced to live together may form a social group.....the fact that a dog doesnt recognise that us dopey humans cant scavenge for food particularly well yet are still unwilling to challenge our leadership is proof alone that dogs do not maintain any pack instinct whatsoever and therefore match the profile for non pack animals perfectly.

 

Domestic dogs dont use challenge and threat to communicate with us when they are unhappy they use the thousands of years of adapting to interact with us in a social way .....its because they left " pack life " behind all them years ago that allows them to do this rather than use pack instinct to say " f**k you useless im taking over this pack you are incapable of providing for my needs "

 

Again,im not saying im right its just the conclusions ive arrived at in my own mind over time.....cheers.

What have ya gone and rooted up now ?

This whole site is a testament that dogs(Domesticated) not Wolves (Wild) are an animal drawn to hunt with others thereby creating a social bond in doing so

 

Let me break this down , there is a bird called a Harris hawk in the wild it hunts in groups , that is a fairly unique system for a bird of prey but because of this social aspect it has become a real bird of choice for a lot of falconers around the globe in a relatively short space of time , its social element has got zero to do with domestication and lots to do with its hunting habits ..

 

Try a cat mate , it's domesticated it's also a predator , which fulfills its trainability but it's generally not a social hunter but that won't bother you because according to you that don't matter

Why do you keep using other animals to try to prove that dogs still retain " pack instinct " ?.......the only reason i mentioned a Wolf is because your theory that dogs are trainable because they are pack animals suggests that a Wolf should therefore be trainable ?.......stick to dogs and explain to me what behaviour a dog shows in everyday life that is the same as what a pack animal shows.......me i dont see anything at all infact everything i see in dogs tells me that pack life has been left behind long ago.

I give up , yeah your right

 

You have the ability to disregard any logical debate , the reason I mention other animals is to contrast between a solitary creature and a creature drawn to the company of others ,

mate this is the most basic of understanding of animals , if you can't wrap your head around that , there is no point trying to take this into any more depth

 

I thought there was something there some understanding on your behalf but shit I was way of the mark

Good luck

Edited October 21, 2016 by Casso

[JDHUNTING 1,817]

 

 

 

Casso you seem to of gone off in a different direction and to be honest i don't disagree with anything you have said barring your first line.

 

" The fact that a dog is trainable at all is because it is a pack animal !! "

 

No i completely disagree.... its not because its a pack animal its because its domesticated.....a Wolf is a pack animal could you train a Wolf ?....this daft theory that dogs will recognise a lack of responsibility and leadership and allow us to step into the role of pack leader is laughable......the strategy of " a pack " is to stay together in family groups to hunt,survival being based on peaceful social bonds with each other and conserving energy for the hunt which will result in a social hierarchy being formed through play and behaviour bla bla bla

 

Domestic dogs are dependant on food from humans for their day to day survival because their instinct for survival has been adapted to live in mixed species groups ( with humans ) .......social hierarchy in wild animals is natural and resource based its not just done through submission and dominance the way a pack of dogs forced to live together may form a social group.....the fact that a dog doesnt recognise that us dopey humans cant scavenge for food particularly well yet are still unwilling to challenge our leadership is proof alone that dogs do not maintain any pack instinct whatsoever and therefore match the profile for non pack animals perfectly.

 

Domestic dogs dont use challenge and threat to communicate with us when they are unhappy they use the thousands of years of adapting to interact with us in a social way .....its because they left " pack life " behind all them years ago that allows them to do this rather than use pack instinct to say " f**k you useless im taking over this pack you are incapable of providing for my needs "

 

Again,im not saying im right its just the conclusions ive arrived at in my own mind over time.....cheers.

What have ya gone and rooted up now ?

This whole site is a testament that dogs(Domesticated) not Wolves (Wild) are an animal drawn to hunt with others thereby creating a social bond in doing so

 

Let me break this down , there is a bird called a Harris hawk in the wild it hunts in groups , that is a fairly unique system for a bird of prey but because of this social aspect it has become a real bird of choice for a lot of falconers around the globe in a relatively short space of time , its social element has got zero to do with domestication and lots to do with its hunting habits ..

 

Try a cat mate , it's domesticated it's also a predator , which fulfills its trainability but it's generally not a social hunter but that won't bother you because according to you that don't matter

Why do you keep using other animals to try to prove that dogs still retain " pack instinct " ?.......the only reason i mentioned a Wolf is because your theory that dogs are trainable because they are pack animals suggests that a Wolf should therefore be trainable ?.......stick to dogs and explain to me what behaviour a dog shows in everyday life that is the same as what a pack animal shows.......me i dont see anything at all infact everything i see in dogs tells me that pack life has been left behind long ago.

I kind of see your point but can't agree with you, wolves aren't trainable because they are still wild whereas I think the pack mentality of canines is what allows them to be such good companions/workers to humans like the dynamic has changed but it's the same basic instinct of wanting to fit into the pack and serve a purpose. Look at cats they literally wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire and everyday thousands of people are scratched or bitten by cats yet only a handful are bitten by dogs, if domestic cats were as big as dogs they'd be hundreds killed everyday! I've two toddlers in the house and two dogs that are much larger and much stronger than the dogs yet they have never and hopefully will never hurt a hair on their head no matter what the kids did to them, this I believe is only possible with an animal with strong pack and hierarchial instinct as the dogs know that they are the offspring of the alpha pack leaders. A none pack animal has no such worries all imo of course

[bird 9,973]

 

 

 

Casso you seem to of gone off in a different direction and to be honest i don't disagree with anything you have said barring your first line.

 

" The fact that a dog is trainable at all is because it is a pack animal !! "

 

No i completely disagree.... its not because its a pack animal its because its domesticated.....a Wolf is a pack animal could you train a Wolf ?....this daft theory that dogs will recognise a lack of responsibility and leadership and allow us to step into the role of pack leader is laughable......the strategy of " a pack " is to stay together in family groups to hunt,survival being based on peaceful social bonds with each other and conserving energy for the hunt which will result in a social hierarchy being formed through play and behaviour bla bla bla

 

Domestic dogs are dependant on food from humans for their day to day survival because their instinct for survival has been adapted to live in mixed species groups ( with humans ) .......social hierarchy in wild animals is natural and resource based its not just done through submission and dominance the way a pack of dogs forced to live together may form a social group.....the fact that a dog doesnt recognise that us dopey humans cant scavenge for food particularly well yet are still unwilling to challenge our leadership is proof alone that dogs do not maintain any pack instinct whatsoever and therefore match the profile for non pack animals perfectly.

 

Domestic dogs dont use challenge and threat to communicate with us when they are unhappy they use the thousands of years of adapting to interact with us in a social way .....its because they left " pack life " behind all them years ago that allows them to do this rather than use pack instinct to say " f**k you useless im taking over this pack you are incapable of providing for my needs "

 

Again,im not saying im right its just the conclusions ive arrived at in my own mind over time.....cheers.

What have ya gone and rooted up now ?

This whole site is a testament that dogs(Domesticated) not Wolves (Wild) are an animal drawn to hunt with others thereby creating a social bond in doing so

 

Let me break this down , there is a bird called a Harris hawk in the wild it hunts in groups , that is a fairly unique system for a bird of prey but because of this social aspect it has become a real bird of choice for a lot of falconers around the globe in a relatively short space of time , its social element has got zero to do with domestication and lots to do with its hunting habits ..

 

Try a cat mate , it's domesticated it's also a predator , which fulfills its trainability but it's generally not a social hunter but that won't bother you because according to you that don't matter

Why do you keep using other animals to try to prove that dogs still retain " pack instinct " ?.......the only reason i mentioned a Wolf is because your theory that dogs are trainable because they are pack animals suggests that a Wolf should therefore be trainable ?.......stick to dogs and explain to me what behaviour a dog shows in everyday life that is the same as what a pack animal shows.......me i dont see anything at all infact everything i see in dogs tells me that pack life has been left behind long ago.

I kind of see your point but can't agree with you, wolves aren't trainable because they are still wild whereas I think the pack mentality of canines is what allows them to be such good companions/workers to humans like the dynamic has changed but it's the same basic instinct of wanting to fit into the pack and serve a purpose. Look at cats they literally wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire and everyday thousands of people are scratched or bitten by cats yet only a handful are bitten by dogs, if domestic cats were as big as dogs they'd be hundreds killed everyday! I've two toddlers in the house and two dogs that are much larger and much stronger than the dogs yet they have never and hopefully will never hurt a hair on their head no matter what the kids did to them, this I believe is only possible with an animal with strong pack and hierarchial instinct as the dogs know that they are the offspring of the alpha pack leaders. A none pack animal has no such worries all imo of course

 

and yet a pride of lions which is really the same as pack ,animals living in a group , a male lion will kill cubs , and some females have done as well all in the same pride , seen it many time on the box a wolf not a domestic animal like a dog, and they tried few times to domestic them, and they are always dodgy temps very unpredictable /dangerous the genes are still strong in a wolf , in dogs its been bred out of them deff !! years ago in spain when on holiday there packs of wild dogs there, there rounded them up , re trained them solo to be either given as pets or put down if no homes were found, but all were trainable with good temps , so to me years domestication as never left a dog even when left to run wild, unlike wolves But like been said on here any dog will bite , but certain breeds will take it further to kill/mame there tenacity level is higher than other breeds , and been bred that way by man the average dog wll just snap and bite once , but as above other breeds dont . and most times its kids and old people getting hurt. if people want a pet dog in the house get somting they can handle , plenty of little mongrels make great family pets when i was kid most people in the street kept them, dont think i heard of any bitting people /kids, bloody hell the dogs were out with the kids all day playing , we get called in for tea and the dogs came in as well the only dogs we kept locked up in kennels and runs were the bull breeds , and if they were taken out it was always on a lead, in them days(60s) alot of staffs,pits and bullmastiffs , were given more road work than anything else, if you want a pet/family dog there better type of dogs than bull breeds , i like them but wouldn't be my 1st choice for a pet .

[Casso 1,261]

 

 

 

 

Casso you seem to of gone off in a different direction and to be honest i don't disagree with anything you have said barring your first line.

 

" The fact that a dog is trainable at all is because it is a pack animal !! "

 

No i completely disagree.... its not because its a pack animal its because its domesticated.....a Wolf is a pack animal could you train a Wolf ?....this daft theory that dogs will recognise a lack of responsibility and leadership and allow us to step into the role of pack leader is laughable......the strategy of " a pack " is to stay together in family groups to hunt,survival being based on peaceful social bonds with each other and conserving energy for the hunt which will result in a social hierarchy being formed through play and behaviour bla bla bla

 

Domestic dogs are dependant on food from humans for their day to day survival because their instinct for survival has been adapted to live in mixed species groups ( with humans ) .......social hierarchy in wild animals is natural and resource based its not just done through submission and dominance the way a pack of dogs forced to live together may form a social group.....the fact that a dog doesnt recognise that us dopey humans cant scavenge for food particularly well yet are still unwilling to challenge our leadership is proof alone that dogs do not maintain any pack instinct whatsoever and therefore match the profile for non pack animals perfectly.

 

Domestic dogs dont use challenge and threat to communicate with us when they are unhappy they use the thousands of years of adapting to interact with us in a social way .....its because they left " pack life " behind all them years ago that allows them to do this rather than use pack instinct to say " f**k you useless im taking over this pack you are incapable of providing for my needs "

 

Again,im not saying im right its just the conclusions ive arrived at in my own mind over time.....cheers.

 

What have ya gone and rooted up now ?

This whole site is a testament that dogs(Domesticated) not Wolves (Wild) are an animal drawn to hunt with others thereby creating a social bond in doing so

Let me break this down , there is a bird called a Harris hawk in the wild it hunts in groups , that is a fairly unique system for a bird of prey but because of this social aspect it has become a real bird of choice for a lot of falconers around the globe in a relatively short space of time , its social element has got zero to do with domestication and lots to do with its hunting habits ..

Try a cat mate , it's domesticated it's also a predator , which fulfills its trainability but it's generally not a social hunter but that won't bother you because according to you that don't matter

Why do you keep using other animals to try to prove that dogs still retain " pack instinct " ?.......the only reason i mentioned a Wolf is because your theory that dogs are trainable because they are pack animals suggests that a Wolf should therefore be trainable ?.......stick to dogs and explain to me what behaviour a dog shows in everyday life that is the same as what a pack animal shows.......me i dont see anything at all infact everything i see in dogs tells me that pack life has been left behind long ago.

I kind of see your point but can't agree with you, wolves aren't trainable because they are still wild whereas I think the pack mentality of canines is what allows them to be such good companions/workers to humans like the dynamic has changed but it's the same basic instinct of wanting to fit into the pack and serve a purpose. Look at cats they literally wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire and everyday thousands of people are scratched or bitten by cats yet only a handful are bitten by dogs, if domestic cats were as big as dogs they'd be hundreds killed everyday! I've two toddlers in the house and two dogs that are much larger and much stronger than the dogs yet they have never and hopefully will never hurt a hair on their head no matter what the kids did to them, this I believe is only possible with an animal with strong pack and hierarchial instinct as the dogs know that they are the offspring of the alpha pack leaders. A none pack animal has no such worries all imo of course

and yet a pride of lions which is really the same as pack ,animals living in a group , a male lion will kill cubs , and some females have done as well all in the same pride , seen it many time on the box a wolf not a domestic animal like a dog, and they tried few times to domestic them, and they are always dodgy temps very unpredictable /dangerous the genes are still strong in a wolf , in dogs its been bred out of them deff !! years ago in spain when on holiday there packs of wild dogs there, there rounded them up , re trained them solo to be either given as pets or put down if no homes were found, but all were trainable with good temps , so to me years domestication as never left a dog even when left to run wild, unlike wolves But like been said on here any dog will bite , but certain breeds will take it further to kill/mame there tenacity level is higher than other breeds , and been bred that way by man the average dog wll just snap and bite once , but as above other breeds dont . and most times its kids and old people getting hurt. if people want a pet dog in the house get somting they can handle , plenty of little mongrels make great family pets when i was kid most people in the street kept them, dont think i heard of any bitting people /kids, bloody hell the dogs were out with the kids all day playing , we get called in for tea and the dogs came in as well the only dogs we kept locked up in kennels and runs were the bull breeds , and if they were taken out it was always on a lead, in them days(60s) alot of staffs,pits and bullmastiffs , were given more road work than anything else, if you want a pet/family dog there better type of dogs than bull breeds , i like them but wouldn't be my 1st choice for a pet .

That's a good point about lions ray , a very social cat who hunts larger prey like the wolf and the reason he can is because a pack carries more buzz more excitement more energy more ability , the pack is an evolutionary success story for the dog in particular ,

 

how can ya see dog without reading pack ?? I don't get it

[Lab 10,979]

I think I've read twice now that you can't train wolves.....I take it you mean a fully grown one because a pup would be quite easy I'd imagine.