Should Staffs Be Banned ?

[WILF 47,256]

Good discussion boys.

King, I don't understand why people would put a strong type of dog in a household environment anyway no matter if they are a cur or very well bred.

I know many do and do it successfully but personally I don't understand it.

 

I have shotguns in the house but I wouldn't let the kids play with them if you get my meaning mate.

[king 11,972]

Good discussion boys.

King, I don't understand why people would put a strong type of dog in a household environment anyway no matter if they are a cur or very well bred.

I know many do and do it successfully but personally I don't understand it.

I have shotguns in the house but I wouldn't let the kids play with them if you get my meaning mate.

Theres the tracksuit wearing youth on the street corner who want big dog for a status symbol type nonsence gold chain on the neck and big dog.

The look at me idiots.

Then there the other side of the spectrum who want the dog for temperament and to be a family member.

This is a dog i had many moons ago.

My 3 young lads grew up with him.

He would sit next to my lads on the carpet when they had a plate of food on the carpet.he wouldnt look at the food.

Amazing temperament on him.the lads would ride on his back.hang off his tail.i bought him for a guard dog to be honest.

But if the wife was on the yard sorting the lurchers no man would get through the gate.

Didnt bother locking the back door for yrs.

He slept in the kitchen.if a burglar wanted to break in.

Then good luck to them.

The wice and lads still mention him regularly.

[WILF 47,256]

As I said mate, it's only a personal opinion.

 

See, nobody would get a working terrier based on the logic that it can be trained into working well and yet people will happily buy a bull type based on the logic that it can be trained out of doing things serious damage.

 

I don't get that at all and personally it would be a risk too far.

[king 11,972]

I remember my old mate 60 at the time.

Telling me about a woman bringing her staff dog to him as she was having problems with it.

Her husband was working away through the week and home at weekends.

The lad came home 1 Friday evening and told the dog to get off his arm chair in the kitchen.

The dog blanked him.he went to move the dog off the chair and the dog snapped at him but just missed him.

The guy was adamant that the dog had to go.

Which caused a big row.

The dog was obviously trying to rule the roost so to speak and must of thought a bit of aggresion her and i can be on top and do as i want.

The woman brought the dog to my mate saturday morning very upset that the dog would have to go.

The dog was on a lead.my mate said let the dog off the lead.

The dog ran upto my mate and started barking at him staying a few ft away.

My mate had the dog to come closer and caught it by the collar with 1 hand.and with the other hand gripped its muzzle and started to squeeze till the dog started to whine.he kept the pressure on increasing it till the dog started screaming.

Then let go.the dog backed off a few ft.then walked to him and sat by his feet.not a sound or any aggresion from the dog what so ever.

He told the woman take the dog back home.

Put him on the seat and tell your husband to walk back into the kitchen and tell the dog off the chair.

The dog was straight off the chair. Behaving like a different dog they kept the dog for yrs and yrs with no aggresion being shown to the husband again.

[WILF 47,256]

Do you think there can be a certain amount of hubris about these things sometimes ?........that people are willing to take the risk believing their own abilities can out match nature?

 

I mean let's be honest, nobody buys a lab as a guard dog because it has no history of doing damage to humans......they buy dogs that have the history and capability to seriously hurt and kill other dogs and even in some unfortunate cases humans.

 

I mean a small risk is still a risk and when a child's bedroom lays empty it's all a bit late for the "he has never done that before" speech.

[king 11,972]

Do you think there can be a certain amount of hubris about these things sometimes ?........that people are willing to take the risk believing their own abilities can out match nature?

I mean let's be honest, nobody buys a lab as a guard dog because it has no history of doing damage to humans......they buy dogs that have the history and capability to seriously hurt and kill other dogs and even in some unfortunate cases humans.

I mean a small risk is still a risk and when a child's bedroom lays empty it's all a bit late for the "he has never done that before" speech.

I agree wilf but life is full of dangers.

Its a tricky subject.

With so many ifs and buts.

Only the owner can make his own decisions.

If someone wants to buy a big powerfull dog.who are we to argue with there choice.

[Casso 1,261]

 

 

Where have all the no bad dogs just bad owner little luvvies got to these days !

Hi Gnash,

 

You and me kind of had that conversation on another thread and, I think I may have not put my view across very well.

 

Please, don't get me wrong, I'm not some animal rights luvvie....

 

There are good dogs and there are bad dogs. There are good owners and there are bad owners.

 

As already said in this thread, problems occur when people stop remembering that they have an animal living in their home.

 

..... A dog is a dog is a dog. It's a basic pack animal with muscle and teeth. Whether it weighs 4kg or 40kg.

 

The dog is a basic animal with basic instincts and relatively low intelligence. The problem occur (barring a total brain fart) when bad owners let their guard down.

 

I've had large breeds in the the past. I now have 2 Chihuahuas. Both have fantastic natures, respond well to commands and, have always been treated like dogs. But, they're never left alone with kids or strangers.

 

Ultimately, yes, I do believe it is all down to bad owners and piss poor ownership. A dog is an animal, a human is an inteligent being. People make the decisions, rightly or wrongly, how they are going to allow their animals to behave.

 

I'm not trying to conflict with you in this post. Indeed, I hope I've come across as I intended.

 

Atb

 

Hello squire no you,ve come across well and made some good points its always great listening to folk with different views on a common interest i cant remember chatting with you before so forgive me if i repeat anything ive already said but personally i dont buy into this whole " pack animal " stuff a great deal.....i tend to judge things on what i observe rather than reading from books so im not saying im right its just the conclusions ive come to and what ive realised is we cant put in what nature left out but by the same token we cant remove whats ingrained in a living thing and there will be faults crop up in anything bred from nature thats just life whether they are physical or mental faults makes no difference.

 

The reason i dont buy into the whole pack animal thing is the same reason we cant really call every retriever a true retriever or every fighting dog a fighting dog there are retrievers out there with absolutely no instinct whatsoever to retrieve,fighting dogs with no instinct to fight and that has happened in a relatively short space of time so what reason is there to think many dogs have retained any kind of " pack animal " instinct if they cant even retain the instincts they was bred for ?.......i believe when you stop putting a retriever into retrieving situations or a fighting dog into fighting situations over enough generations they cease to be retrievers/fighting dogs by anything more than name.......so with everyday pet dogs being bred for years and years from other pet dogs i fail to see how a pet dog curled up on an old ladies lap wearing a bib and having its teeth whitened can really be classed as a pack animal.......but that doesn't mean to say a dog that has lost its instinct cant still retain a bit of fire in its belly it can......it just doesnt know what to do with that fire as its instinct has been lost hence you get the types of aggression problems we,re seeing with breeds that at one time were very capable animals.....in a nurture v nature debate i side with nature every time but i accept nurture plays a part and a good owner can do wonders with a bad dog but when a bad owner partners up with a bad dog then the odds on a bad outcome are obviously higher as we are witnessing.

 

Forgive my rambling nonsense its just interesting stuff

 

 

Not entirely sure which point your trying to press home , that all dogs who attack are mental one or social is an instinct which can be lost , ?

but this is the point which people can't grasp , it's the point that a dog is social by nature not instinct , a pup is born social , if social was an instinct , why do people believe they need to train a dog to be social , instincts are not trainable for dogs , instincts by their very nature are a reflex, what folk need to do is promote social which is the very base , instincts occur when social breaks down

 

there is not animal that can achieve social like a dog , none , even higher developed mammals , dogs can be rolled over and belly rubbed , even dogs unfarmilar to us , try it with a f****n chimp and he'll rip your arm off at the elbow because he's all instinct,

If you want to see the difference between social by nature versus instinct , belly rub a cat , social breaks down very quickly there , a dog can manage it because it goes by feel , if it feels right it will go with it , it's what social by nature looks like

Edited October 17, 2016 by Casso

[Lab 10,979]

 

 

The dog responsible for the most personal injury claims is the Labrador, while two recent fatal attacks have involved Jack Russell's.......should we ban these breeds, too ?

Labrador's might bite but they rarely carry out the prolonged attacks that bull breeds do when they turn.

Collies lash out then back away, whereas a bull breed like the one that killed the baby then mauled the other child and mother, was probably loving every minute on the carnage it was unleashing.

Just trying to shed some light on the myth that bull breeds are responsible for most injuries, mate.

Like I said, I've had several Stafford's, and never had a problem with them.

Maybe a graph of ratios would help.

[Lab 10,979]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Last few years fatalities in UK caused by dogs

 

Nov 2013 4 year old girl killed - Bull Mastiff

Dec 2013 - 27 year old woman killed - Staffordshire Bull Terrier & Pit Bull

Feb 2014 - Baby killed - Alaskan Malamute

Feb 2014 - 11 month old girl killed - Pit Bull

June 2014 - 79 year old killed - Presa Canario

Oct 2014 - 11 month old killed - Staffordshire Bull terrier

Sept 2015 - 64 year old killed - American bull dog

Jan 2016 - 22 year ld killed - Pit Bull

Aug 2016 - 29 year old killed - Bull Terrier

Oct 2016 - 4 month killed - Staffordshire Bull terrier

 

No spaniels or labradors

were the 22 and 29 killed where they men, can under stand a child or old person, being killed but young man norm strong and fit could protect there selves , if they were men . ?

I think one of them was a man and he had an epileptic fit mate,

 

Bird I would like to say from reading your posts you are one of the people who seems to have a very good knowledge and understanding of these breeds and people like you are the reason these dogs shouldn't be banned however I can't help thinking they should be controlled to stop the idiots from owning them.

yeh if a fit a dog will attack , a dog can sense something wrong . yes i was brought up with bull breeds as a kid, and like ive always said there were all in kennels and runs, and never let out unless my old man was there . there deff are getting in the wrong hands , and more kids will get hurt or killed because of it. your right something will have to happen , they might look at the dda again , it said on the news the dda as not stopped these attacks from bull type breeds ,

Very good point about these dogs being kept in the kennel mate. And exactly where they should be, like all dogs.

2 very good friends of mine are expecting a baby start of next year. They have 2 very laid back, good natured springers that stay in the house. Too say they treat them like there 'babies' is an understatement.

I just hope they realise that a baby coming into the home may knock there noses out of joint so they will need to be extra vigilant. Not that I think that the dogs would bite to kill but a nasty bite to a newborn baby is enough to leave scars for life.

[bird 9,941]

 

 

 

Practically everyone replying on this read is a dog owner.

And has been for yrs and yrs.

We all like to work dogs.train dogs.feck most of us are obssesed with feeding dogs.and most of us can spot a dodgy dog by its behaviour and body language etc.

Then theres people who dont give much thought about there dog/dogs.

And havent got the experience to put the dog at the bottom of the pack order in the household.

And just let the dog do what it wants.when it wants.

Look what happens in a wild dog pack.

The young dogs coming up want to reach the top.be alpha dog.

And the only way to achieve that is by fighting in order to climb the ranks.

Im sure that a lot of dogs attacks are a result of a dog trying to put his stamp on the pack.in order to climb through the ranks.

You don't need to dominant a dog to have a social and secure animal

Any dog can grow up social if you channel its natural energetic expression into group behavior with its owner, its the expression of energy that builds the social bond, a dog is born social , what happens between when it first arrived as a pup and when it flips out is a tale of missed opportunities misleading nformation and a complete disregard or failure to motivate the dog to commit to a group mind , if a dog can go by feel and feel secure in its surrounding it can overwhelm any instinctive f**k ups which are the cause of this behaviour

 

The behaviour(aggression) is hard wired in the dog , you can address it or disregard it but I'd rather give the mutt the answer as to what to do with his energy BEFORE he gives me the problem

 

King is right , all dogs have different temps even in the same litter, some pups will naturally want to be dominate animal, and some wont . you got to take each pup as it comes . if you got a dominant dog / pup you got make sure the dog knows your incontrol , and not the other way . My 2 dogs have different temps, Bryn more dominant temp than Buck , Buck happy to go along with it , but both are very passive towards me , and senstive temps , which is ok but to prefer a bolder temp in a dog if i'm honest , not one who in your face type, but one that dont get up set that easy, like my 2 wimps do lol .

 

put it this way ray , if you kept that big dog of yours confined to a small yard , separated from any form of exercise or behavior to prevent the build up of his massive energetic ability and one day something triggers a release of energy like a kettle finally boiling over, would you say he is trying to social climb or is there a more natural explanation ??

 

 

good point that above my wife said the same as you regards Buck, that we are lucky with his temp, that he is docile and easy to live with, he gets plenty of exercise day/night , and i make a point trying to socialise him with people/dogs when out , as apart from work/walks he in his kennel/run 24/7 . i know what he can do field he full on, but am very lucky he seems to switch off when not working.And as you say if he did try to climb social ladder and be be more dominant to me or Bryn really, he be a nightmare to keep , i did keep on top of him as pup, but he seems happy in his position in the kennel with Bryn, and both are subservient to me anyway . and powerful dogs like him that are in kennel 24/7 deff need a outlet and to socialised , or it could end in tears long term

[jigsaw 11,866]

 

 

 

heres some of mine years back,2 of the 3 were in the house regularly,all were busy through their lives,never had an incident with any folk with them...Placid and knew where they stood in the family ...I have my last staff left ,13 years old,slept on the bed of my sons and daughter over the years,slept on my sons and daughter on the sofa over the years.I kept a lot of bull terrier types over the years gone,none ever had any nastiness in them with family,i put it down to knowing how to behave and control a driven dog.....

..

 

 

 

 

it isnt the dogs in my view that cause the problems but the lack of rules for the animal

[neems 2,406]

Some dogs just aren't right in the head,not whole breeds,but individual dogs.

 

And those scatty and aggressive dogs will be the ones getting bred from most by a lot of the people who like bull breeds,so I'd be very careful in picking one for a pet.

I'd want to know and trust that nowhere down the line is one of those scatty,horrible dogs.

 

I'd actually go for a show bred staff if I wanted one for that reason,even though they don't have any of the attributes I'd want in a dog.

[jigsaw 11,866]

all my dogs were from working lines back then,we never thought of any dog attacking a person,to me it seems its only the last years that such attacks have become prominent,maybe im wrong,maybe its the net and info on such matters is more easily accessible.it wasnt much heard of back in the day as far as I can recall.

[forest of dean redneck 11,661]

First time I was bit was when a primary school kid by a russell ,probably around 1980.

But it was practically unheard of then and when you think lot of latchkey dogs an kids back then.

But also there were less dogs back then,and no spoilt dogs, I wonder if these high protein dog foods are similar to a kid eating sweets,then going hyper??

[neems 2,406]

all my dogs were from working lines back then,we never thought of any dog attacking a person,to me it seems its only the last years that such attacks have become prominent,maybe im wrong,maybe its the net and info on such matters is more easily accessible.it wasnt much heard of back in the day as far as I can recall.

 

Same deal with working dogs as show dogs imo,if they're dangerous and unstable they probably won't live very long and aren't likely to be getting bred from.

 

Whereas the dog at 9.04 probably sired about 10 litters.

(I'd advise you don't watch anymore than that part,it's embarassing just listening to them talk)