Training Of A Stubborn Grew

[rob190364 2,594]

quick question as I`m running out of ideas of what to suggest. My dad has recently got himself a greyhoundxwhippet from a rescue centre, 11 moonths old when he got it. The dog has what has now turned into a fairly major issue, in that he simply won`t come back to you when off the lead. In the huse, garden and when on an extending lead he`s good as gold, but when off lead he will stick with you but just out of reach. My thoughts were that he associates the lead with the end of the walk so one solution might be to keep putting him on the lead for a few minutes at a time throughout the duration of the walk so the lead doesn`t necessarily mean home time, thwe problem is he sim[ply won`t come back for that to be possible. I`ve also suggested not feeding him at all during the day and carrying food with you so he comes when you hold it out due to him being hungry, but that doesn`t work either. You literally have to corner him or get him back on the lead. The only time I`ve seen him come straight back is when my lurcher was chasing him and gave him a nip, at which p;oint he yelped and went straight back to my dad...which kind of makes me think maybe a shock collar might be effective, it`s not something I ever thought I`d even consider but I really don`t have any other ideas. When I`m working my dad is not letting him off because he simply wouldn`1t catch him again, but days on the lead just makes him worse.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

[Casso 1,261]

Don't use a shock collar on that pup , its completely focused on the negetive in its environment coming from bad treatment reading between the lines ,

 

Unless you leave an e collar on 24/7 and that's not going to happen you going to have a very reactive dog in relation to human contact , so no matter where the correction comes from the dog is going to place blame at the handlers door ,

 

Long long line , all food in pocket or whatever , feed only when pup makes contact , when outside on long line, no changes from that , the dog won't starve only feed in your space No corrections and plenty of time

 

If a dog feels a correction whether it be a stone throw or a natural belt of something a dog can blame the most intense object in its environment which is often the owner , any pain can be associated to an early correction if a dog is approaching the world through fear rimmed goggles and avoidance is a huge tell of a dog living on its wits

Edited September 18, 2016 by Casso

[bird 10,013]

Don't use a shock collar on that pup , its completely focused on the negetive in its environment coming from bad treatment reading between the lines ,

 

Unless you leave an e collar on 24/7 and that's not going to happen you going to have a very reactive dog in relation to human contact , so no matter where the correction comes from the dog is going to place blame at the handlers door ,

 

Long long line , all food in pocket or whatever , feed only when pup makes contact , when outside on long line, no changes from that , the dog won't starve only feed in your space No corrections and plenty of time

 

If a dog feels a correction whether it be a stone throw or a natural belt of something a dog can blame the most intense object in its environment which is often the owner , any pain can be associated to an early correction if a dog is approaching the world through fear rimmed goggles and avoidance is a huge tell of a dog living on its wits

spot on, true , when a dog at peace with you relaxed , it will naturally want to come to you, yeh fear etc the dog keep away from just out of reach thats why. sometimes these rescue dogs or older dogs you take on ,you take on other people probs deff if a lurcher that you want for hunting, thats got work of the lead, i always go for a pup 1st, then if it goes wrong it me fecked it up . my 2 dogs are brill of the lead, in fact there both bit clingy , they both always keep one eye on me. the only time they dont is if they seen or smelled game ,and they both piss off then lol Bryn will come back after 5 mins but Buck wont he either run it or loose it then come back to my side .

[mushroom 13,509]

Anybody have any ideas about a dog that isn't doing it fear based but simply gets a rush off being a cnut?

???

[Casso 1,261]

In reading dog behavior resistance to owner and external distractions are the overwhelming issues for a dog dealing with how it feels when given a choice llike this

 

If there are no distractions, the dog has developed a pattern recognition which can be worked on by changing the behavior of the owner and making it worth the dogs while by establishing a reward system thus rewiring how a dog feels about a behavior

Edited September 18, 2016 by Casso

[bird 10,013]

Anybody have any ideas about a dog that isn't doing it fear based but simply gets a rush off being a cnut?

 

yeh , size 10 up the arse ,or 686 in it lug hole , you know you love him really

[Squeamish5 309]

This may not be very useful, as I'm not a natural dog-handler, and my little rescue dog is a pet, not a worker.

But this is what I did, after reading millions of 'recall' threads on here and the lurcher link forum.

Bought a whistle.

Found a 'high-value' tasty, smelly food that the dog loved. (Smoked mackerel).

Accepted that it might take a while to train recall, but that a few months concentrated and committed training would likely give many years of a happy, relaxed relationship with my dog, and that the training process itself would help me bond with Pupsicles.

 

Starting at home, when Pups was next to me, 3 pips on the whistle, handful of fish to the dog. Fussed him and praised him. Did this a few random times a day, for a coupla days. Then, gradually, extended distance to 'another room' / the garden, and at unexpected times.... Pups snuggled on the sofa with Himself, me in kitchen, etc. So; whatever else was happening, he associated 3 pips with 'come and get some delicious food', and 'oh my goodness! What a good boy, well done!' etc, whatever he or I was doing.

After about 10 days, I then tried it outside, in our local park. Pups on a long line (NOT an extendable lead).

Only blew the 3 pips whistle if there were NO distractions, or if he was already coming in towards me. Handful of fish, big praise and fusses.

 

(In my experience, an added bonus of using a fairly wet squishy treat was that, to get it, he was making a sensory connection with me, his nose in my hand, and licking every last morsel off, so coming in to me was a re-connecting with and re-focusing on me.)

 

Did this for about a week.

Then took him to a different park, where he was slightly out of his comfort zone, and let him off. Whistled him in, fish, fuss, nose in hand, sent him off again. Second time in, put him on lead. Asked for a 'sit'. Rewarded with more fish and fuss. Let him off again. Called him in. Fish and fuss. Lead on. Walked him on the lead while giving even more fish and fuss. Went home feeling smug, and pleased with each other.

Did this daily, over a further week, gradually increasing the length of time and number of times he was off lead, and even while running with other dogs in the park. (Including having around 15 large adult dogs all racing in to me on the 3 pips, hoping for some smoked mackerel).

 

Only after this rather intense and nervy (on my part) 3 weeks, did I risk letting him off in an interesting place (the woods...full of interesting smells yet free of endless long runs).

My little dog was only 5 1/2 months when I got him, and had not had any negative experience, to my knowledge, so this may be irrelevant to your Pa's new dog.

Also and anyway, 'Total Recall' by Pippa Mattinson (I think she's a gundog trainer) is a most excellent book and a useful resource for when your dog starts deafing you out!

 

I've just re-read this and realise it's probs really soppy and girly. But it worked for me. Best of luck.

[terryd 8,753]

not soppy at all and good on you for doing the work. With my dog if that some thing interesting is fresh scent or turning for some fish the scent will win though. But that's him his quite enthusiastic. I would have more chance of putting him in a stop

Edited September 18, 2016 by terryd

[Squeamish5 309]

Terryd, Ha and lol. Pupsicles the same now. Dead rats, Disembowled birds, large (and rather beautiful) dogfish, fox shit, other dogs etc... have all, recently, turned out to be a lot more appealing than me. To say nothing of the general autumnal under-cover sniffs.

I just thought that, at least as a starting point, my initial recall forays might be of use.

Meanwhile I'm in total envy of your box training stuff. Pupsicles is just not getting the hang of 'Off!'. Am hoping that 'softly softly catchee monkee' will eventually pay off, at least before Pups electrocutes or poisons himself.

Re STOP! I'm working towards this, in my flailing around, dunno what I'm doing, kind of way. Seruiusly nowhere near yet. Is it truly possible?

[terryd 8,753]

I think your right . I find my dogs response to whistle works better than verbal so for a stop i stuck him on light long line and toot the whistle once and put a hand in the air so as to get a hand signal going at the same time then put me foot on the line to start and went from there. I used to just shout wait and he would stop most the time but popped a line to make sure he stopped every time and prefer to whistle. His very good now on or off and I can use a dog whistle or my own whistle. Recall is good now two toots and his back unless fresh scent involved then its can go either way So based on that sentence his recall aint that great lol. But if I could call him off a hot scent maybe that would make him a rubbish hunter

I do struggle with him on some aspects of his training. If you said fancy going for a wander with the dogs I would say no because he would bounce all over your dog making a right prat of him self. A pain in the ass for all concerned. Also I wouldn't risk him with sheep on some one elses perm. That issue is pretty much done and dusted and maybe in a years time if he is still on track then maybe lol.

Just being honest its not all smooth sailing. But the thing is never give on them and keep going forward

Edited September 19, 2016 by terryd

[Casso 1,261]

This may not be very useful, as I'm not a natural dog-handler, and my little rescue dog is a pet, not a worker.

But this is what I did, after reading millions of 'recall' threads on here and the lurcher link forum.

Bought a whistle.

Found a 'high-value' tasty, smelly food that the dog loved. (Smoked mackerel).

Accepted that it might take a while to train recall, but that a few months concentrated and committed training would likely give many years of a happy, relaxed relationship with my dog, and that the training process itself would help me bond with Pupsicles.

 

Starting at home, when Pups was next to me, 3 pips on the whistle, handful of fish to the dog. Fussed him and praised him. Did this a few random times a day, for a coupla days. Then, gradually, extended distance to 'another room' / the garden, and at unexpected times.... Pups snuggled on the sofa with Himself, me in kitchen, etc. So; whatever else was happening, he associated 3 pips with 'come and get some delicious food', and 'oh my goodness! What a good boy, well done!' etc, whatever he or I was doing.

After about 10 days, I then tried it outside, in our local park. Pups on a long line (NOT an extendable lead).

Only blew the 3 pips whistle if there were NO distractions, or if he was already coming in towards me. Handful of fish, big praise and fusses.

 

(In my experience, an added bonus of using a fairly wet squishy treat was that, to get it, he was making a sensory connection with me, his nose in my hand, and licking every last morsel off, so coming in to me was a re-connecting with and re-focusing on me.)

 

Did this for about a week.

Then took him to a different park, where he was slightly out of his comfort zone, and let him off. Whistled him in, fish, fuss, nose in hand, sent him off again. Second time in, put him on lead. Asked for a 'sit'. Rewarded with more fish and fuss. Let him off again. Called him in. Fish and fuss. Lead on. Walked him on the lead while giving even more fish and fuss. Went home feeling smug, and pleased with each other.

Did this daily, over a further week, gradually increasing the length of time and number of times he was off lead, and even while running with other dogs in the park. (Including having around 15 large adult dogs all racing in to me on the 3 pips, hoping for some smoked mackerel).

 

Only after this rather intense and nervy (on my part) 3 weeks, did I risk letting him off in an interesting place (the woods...full of interesting smells yet free of endless long runs).

My little dog was only 5 1/2 months when I got him, and had not had any negative experience, to my knowledge, so this may be irrelevant to your Pa's new dog.

Also and anyway, 'Total Recall' by Pippa Mattinson (I think she's a gundog trainer) is a most excellent book and a useful resource for when your dog starts deafing you out!

 

I've just re-read this and realise it's probs really soppy and girly. But it worked for me. Best of luck.

Your 3rd paragraph is the most insightful , sorry I can't express that highlighted or fancy , making a sensory connection in a very primal manner( oral is the most basic and first impulse to connect ) connects the dog back into the group mind

A natural connection which gives dog a target for contact , dogs need to be show how and where to connect and huge for retrieve , dogs will see hands as positive because there is no way round a hand shy dog

 

Top class advice

[leethedog 3,071]

Squeamish you use same techniques as me only difference is I wouldn't give reward every single time

[Casso 1,261]

If chaining 2 exercises I'd drop a reward then, but not before , if I give him a YES, he knows100% that a reward is coming with the feeling of the reward coming to him ,I get other behaviours in that excited mindset , sit , down , heel fetch , gradually extend the command timelenght from seconds to minutes but always giving the reward at the end , dropping a reward is more confusing , the feeling of getting a reward in the near future is an eager mind to work with and easier to built a chain of events

[Caravan Monster 323]

quick question ...

 

http://www.thehuntinglife.com/the-value-of-tug-games-with-puppies/ might be worth a try to get the dog to build confidence and feel more comfortable and enthusiastic about coming in close to your Dad. I've not really used it myself, but the hand feeding routines might be worth a go for the same reasons.

 

 

Terryd, Ha and lol. Pupsicles the same now. Dead rats, Disembowled birds, large (and rather beautiful) dogfish, fox shit, other dogs etc... have all, recently, turned out to be a lot more appealing than me. To say nothing of the general autumnal under-cover sniffs.

I just thought that, at least as a starting point, my initial recall forays might be of use.

Meanwhile I'm in total envy of your box training stuff. Pupsicles is just not getting the hang of 'Off!'. Am hoping that 'softly softly catchee monkee' will eventually pay off, at least before Pups electrocutes or poisons himself.

Re STOP! I'm working towards this, in my flailing around, dunno what I'm doing, kind of way. Seruiusly nowhere near yet. Is it truly possible?

 

Keep at it with the 'stop'. I also got my dog as an older puppy and struggled with her more than any of those that came before. She got it eventually and 'stop' has saved the day in several dangerous situations already. Still a long way to go with obedience, but it's starting to come together.

 

Got any links for box training ? Couldn't see anything on google and wondered what it was.

[rob190364 2,594]

Thanks for the ideas/comments everyone. Just a little bit more info/background. Forgot to say, the dog is a pet, he won't be working it. Also, I genuinely don't think it's a fear based reaction, he doesn't look or act in the least bit scared or nervous, there's no tail between the legs, ears back or anything of that nature. To be honest, I wish there was because it's fairly easy to overcome that given time, that's just purely a confidence building exercise. With this dog it's like he simply doesn't want to go on the lead, end of. The woman he got her off also had a greyhound and she was one of these people that treats her dogs like they are kids, and is over the top fannying about with toys, treats, teddies etc etc. I only met her once when he actually went to collect the dog and to be honest, it should have rang alarm bells when he first saw that she was giving up the dog. She claimed it was because he mithers the greyhound to death and the greyhound gets distressed, but that is utter bollocks, he's pretty laid back around other dogs, especially for his age. It winds me up, people like her claim to be dog lovers but pass on dogs without warning the new owner of what they're letting themselves in for....but that's another issue. So yes, it's not a dog that has been abused or ill treated as far as I'm aware, and doesn't exhibit any of the typical traits of a scared or nervous dog. I suppose there's always a chance it might be a bit of a phase with it still being quite a young dog. I'll try a few of the more appealing treats, fish, liver etc. It'll be interesting to see if it works, he's not food motivated at all, but the stronger smelling and more attractive foods might work.