MickC 1,825 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) Larry Holmes could arguably recover from big shots as good as Ali if not better. Joe Louis for me was the best Heavyweight,longest reign and a record of 66 wins(53 kos) with only 3 losses,Alis record was 56 wins(37 kos) and 5 losses.You could arguably even put Holmes in the top 3 with his record of 66 wins(44 kos) and only 6 defeats al lin world tittle fights,and the second longest reign iirc (Wlad might have second longest reign now). I rank the top 3 as 1 Joe Louis 2 Jack Johnson 3 Muhammad Ali. When Louis and Johson fought they also fought in a more racist time than what Ali did,when Johnson won the undisputed title from the unbeaten Jeffries the film of it was banned from being shown by the President of America. Larry could recover good but was a step behind Ali in that department and didn't have the chin to quite match the greatest. Louis had a long reign but his resume is way behind Ali's. Ali also didn't lose until he'd been out of the sport for over 3 years. Louis was KTFO by Schmeling when he was in his pomp. Ali in my mind is the greatest heavyweight of all time. Louis was KTFO by Schmeling who was having his 60th fight,Ali was beat by a 7 fight novice .Ali was missing for 3 years from the sport,these could have been his best years or he could have been beaten in that time but he never fought so who knows. Edited June 5, 2016 by MickC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogFox123 1,379 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) Larry Holmes could arguably recover from big shots as good as Ali if not better. Joe Louis for me was the best Heavyweight,longest reign and a record of 66 wins(53 kos) with only 3 losses,Alis record was 56 wins(37 kos) and 5 losses.You could arguably even put Holmes in the top 3 with his record of 66 wins(44 kos) and only 6 defeats al lin world tittle fights,and the second longest reign iirc (Wlad might have second longest reign now). I rank the top 3 as 1 Joe Louis 2 Jack Johnson 3 Muhammad Ali. When Louis and Johson fought they also fought in a more racist time than what Ali did,when Johnson won the undisputed title from the unbeaten Jeffries the film of it was banned from being shown by the President of America. Larry could recover good but was a step behind Ali in that department and didn't have the chin to quite match the greatest. Louis had a long reign but his resume is way behind Ali's. Ali also didn't lose until he'd been out of the sport for over 3 years. Louis was KTFO by Schmeling when he was in his pomp. Ali in my mind is the greatest heavyweight of all time. Louis was KTFO by Schmeling who was having his 60th fight,Ali was beat by a 7 fight novice .Ali was missing for 3 years from the sport,these could have been his best years or he could have been beaten in that time but he never fought so who knows.Are you off your head or what? Louis was an up and coming title challenger when he got knocked out by Schmeling. Ali was a shell of his former self and likely suffering from Parkinsons when he lost to Spinks. Big difference there pal..... Tell me who could have beat Ali in that time? Frazier is the only man with a shout and I don't think he would have done it in those years as he was beaten in 2 out of their 3 meetings. Edited June 5, 2016 by DogFox123 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MickC 1,825 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) No not off me head at all just merely stating a fact like you did . edit to say Foreman had to be in with a shout of beating him as he kod Frazier and took his unbeaten record before Ali rematched him after losing to him in the first fight. Edited June 5, 2016 by MickC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogFox123 1,379 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 No not off me head at all just merely stating a fact like you did . edit to say Foreman had to be in with a shout of beating him as he kod Frazier and took his unbeaten record before Ali rematched him after losing to him in the first fight. There's a big difference in the context of their defeats don't you agree?? Foreman didn't even challenge for the title until after Frazier had already beat Ali in the FOTC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,121 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) When debating " greatness " of fighters its always easy to get carried away with records and common opponents and start comparing who would beat who and making excuses for this one,reading through all the old stories remembering your favorite bits and forgetting bits you dont like its all so subjective as to judge true greatness of a sports star so many things have to be taken into consideration.....for me the greatest fighter to ever live was Sugar Ray Robinson by quite some distance......greatest heavyweight was Ali followed by Louis.......and in terms of who would beat who through the generations i believe Ali at his best could and would of found a way to beat them all. Edited June 5, 2016 by gnasher16 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lenmcharristar 9,786 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 1 thing about Ali was he could take a punch from the hardest hitters in the sport, but so could Marciano, Ali was the dancer, marciano the brawler, imagine a fight between Frazier and Marciano, 2 human pit dogs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Greengrass 201 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 I ,ve never. Watched much footage of. Sugar Ray Robinson but from what I have read he was something special, the term greatest gets thrown about all to easily...their was only one greatest IMO and that was Ali, nothing will change my opinion on that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,121 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) I ,ve never. Watched much footage of. Sugar Ray Robinson but from what I have read he was something special, the term greatest gets thrown about all to easily...their was only one greatest IMO and that was Ali, nothing will change my opinion on that. I think sometimes it can be a generation thing mate......my son used to argue till he was blue in the face that Mike Tyson was the greatest ever and i,d say " dont be so ridiculous "......but then as a youngster i used to argue with my father that Muhammad Ali was the greatest ever and he would say " dont be so ridiculous its Ray Robinson ". It took me until probably about 10 years ago having asked literally hundreds of different people in and around boxing from all generations over many years and watched everything there was to watch on Robinson to accept that my ol man was probably right all along......im not critisizing you mate but at least have a study of Robinson before saying " nothing will change my opinion " Edited June 5, 2016 by gnasher16 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Greengrass 201 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 Ok Gnasher I can live with constructive criticism lol, I will go and dig a couple of videos on you tube out and get back to you. Perhaps I was brainwashed by my dad at an early age and can,t alter my way of thinking which I know is a bad thing....or maybe my old dad was right all along lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogFox123 1,379 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 There's no fight footage whatsoever of arguably the GOAT Harry Greb plus don't think there's much footage of Robinson at his best in the Welterweight division. Ali is the greatest heavyweight IMO because he has the best resume out there and is head to head the best of all time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
morton 5,368 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 One of the most entertaining of boxers,in and out of the ring and a sad loss.I have major issue with the greatest,he was beat 5 times,his corner cheated Cooper,Liston took a dive in the second fight and Frazier beat him in both fighters prime,plus he was put in the ring with more than his share of doughnuts,Bugner and Dunn come to mind and Bugner took him the distance.If he had have been white he would have been lost in the history of boxing,he was a voice for the "brothers" at the time when it was becoming expedient to be a brother and jump on the bandwagon of equal rights.Entertainer definitely,especially out of the ring,greatest,never even close. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Astanley 11,568 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 There have been many ,many great fighters over the years and its fun to argue and compare records ,opponents etc but for me the crucial question is ,did they redefine the sport ,did they bring something to the table that the sport had never seen before ? Only two fighter meet this criteria in my own very humble opinion ,and its no surprise that young Gnasher has mentioned them both . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogFox123 1,379 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) One of the most entertaining of boxers,in and out of the ring and a sad loss.I have major issue with the greatest,he was beat 5 times,his corner cheated Cooper,Liston took a dive in the second fight and Frazier beat him in both fighters prime,plus he was put in the ring with more than his share of doughnuts,Bugner and Dunn come to mind and Bugner took him the distance.If he had have been white he would have been lost in the history of boxing,he was a voice for the "brothers" at the time when it was becoming expedient to be a brother and jump on the bandwagon of equal rights.Entertainer definitely,especially out of the ring,greatest,never even close. Every champion barring Marciano was defeated on more than one occasion but he was in a poor era filled with has beens and never beens. Hell he beat Joe Louis when he was 105 years old.... Edited June 5, 2016 by DogFox123 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
morton 5,368 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 One of the most entertaining of boxers,in and out of the ring and a sad loss.I have major issue with the greatest,he was beat 5 times,his corner cheated Cooper,Liston took a dive in the second fight and Frazier beat him in both fighters prime,plus he was put in the ring with more than his share of doughnuts,Bugner and Dunn come to mind and Bugner took him the distance.If he had have been white he would have been lost in the history of boxing,he was a voice for the "brothers" at the time when it was becoming expedient to be a brother and jump on the bandwagon of equal rights.Entertainer definitely,especially out of the ring,greatest,never even close. Every champion barring Marciano was defeated on more than one occasion but he was in a poor era filled with has beens and never beens. Hell he beat Joe Louis when he was 105 years old.... Marciano never got beat,especially as the syndicate owned,promoted and regulated the outcome of many of his victories,then along comes another boxer,owned by a syndicate and a world champion refuses to climb off his seat after 6 rounds and takes a dive in his next encounter,then he gets beat,refuses the draft and lets another nigger take his place,beats a few bums and spends the majority of a fight on the ropes when another referee would have kicked him out of the ring for his refusal to fight,then he becomes the worlds greatest athlete,sportsman and boxer.What i fail to understand is if Ali was the greatest,then what were the 5 that beat him,the greatest 5 that beat the greatest or the 5 that are of no concern to the political climate that made Cassius the the great.If you finish 6th in a race you become the 6th fastest runner,in Ali,s cause 5 were disqualified to serve the political climate that he milked. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
darbo 4,776 Posted June 5, 2016 Report Share Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) Lost to joe frazier avenged twice, Lost to ken norton s/d avenged. End of his career between the age of 36-39 lost 3 times avenged the loss to spinks. Father time had caught up as it does to most fighters. Plenty of fighters have lost through history at the end of their career. Edited June 5, 2016 by darbo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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