Boxing At The Weekend...

[jukel123 8,017]

Just now, gnasher16 said:

Possibly....they all have their different faults and qualities.....what Wilder lacks in basic boxing ability he makes up for in courage,fair do's......what Joshua lacks in courage he makes up for in basic boxing ability and so on.......my problem is some of them particularly Fury are getting away with major faults due to their sheer size and that leaves a sour taste for boxing purists...again it all comes back to the same thing if Fury/Wilder/Joshua/Joyce etc was Usyks size it wouldnt even be competitive he is far superior in every area where size doesnt play a roll.....we've seen through history every major world champion at light heavy/cruiser has to fight a heavyweight from Bob Foster to Michael Spinks,Holyfield and so on....but they were jumping up by an inch or two in height/reach and maybe 8 or 9 lb in weight.......not half a foot and 5 stone like today its just ridiculous and makes a mockery of competitive sport.

Regards Dubois i had a few quid tied up in him when he first turned pro but very soon pulled out after seeing quit in him when he stepped up in level even in sparring ....also his father being a complete idiot didnt help but the lad isnt the brightest spark and will do the most instinctive thing that comes into his mind in any given situation.....and then use the excuses made for him by others afterwards.....its a shame as again he's an awesome athlete but you just cant put in what nature left out.

Did you ever rub shoulders with  Mark Kaylor from your neck of the woods? 

[mC HULL 12,498]

6 minutes ago, gnasher16 said:

Possibly....they all have their different faults and qualities.....what Wilder lacks in basic boxing ability he makes up for in courage,fair do's......what Joshua lacks in courage he makes up for in basic boxing ability and so on.......my problem is some of them particularly Fury are getting away with major faults due to their sheer size and that leaves a sour taste for boxing purists...again it all comes back to the same thing if Fury/Wilder/Joshua/Joyce etc was Usyks size it wouldnt even be competitive he is far superior in every area where size doesnt play a roll.....we've seen through history every major world champion at light heavy/cruiser has to fight a heavyweight from Bob Foster to Michael Spinks,Holyfield and so on....but they were jumping up by an inch or two in height/reach and maybe 8 or 9 lb in weight.......not half a foot and 5 stone like today its just ridiculous and makes a mockery of competitive sport.

Regards Dubois i had a few quid tied up in him when he first turned pro but very soon pulled out after seeing quit in him when he stepped up in level even in sparring ....also his father being a complete idiot didnt help but the lad isnt the brightest spark and will do the most instinctive thing that comes into his mind in any given situation.....and then use the excuses made for him by others afterwards.....its a shame as again he's an awesome athlete but you just cant put in what nature left out.

what faults is fury getting away with gnash ? 

apart from not knowing how to throw straight punches i don’t see many 

[gnasher16 30,118]

15 minutes ago, jukel123 said:

Did you ever rub shoulders with  Mark Kaylor from your neck of the woods? 

Indeed mate yes he lives out in California now but we still have a natter every year or so.....ive always felt he would of gone further in todays times where good prospects have their careers mapped out from day one.....he had the wrong fights at the wrong times just to pay the bills etc....he was a cracking come forward box/fighter type id like to think in todays times he would of picked up at least a version of a world title,or maybe im just biased i dont know 

Edited September 8, 2023 by gnasher16

[jukel123 8,017]

17 minutes ago, gnasher16 said:

Indeed mate yes he lives out in California now but we still have a natter every year or so.....ive always felt he would of gone further in todays times where good prospects have their careers mapped out from day one.....he had the wrong fights at the wrong times just to pay the bills etc....he was a cracking come forward box/fighter type id like to think in todays times he would of picked up at least a version of a world title,or maybe im just biased i dont know 

I remember him as a come forward boxer. I've been re watching some of his fights. Top  notch. Everything was much more honest in those days. Terry Lawless must have had some fighters through his hands.

I particularly remember Kaylor because I remember him being interviewed and him saying he  could breathe a lot better because he had had a sinus operation. That encouraged me to go to the quack and eventually I had the same operation. I also remember the genuine street punch up with Christie. And the respectful boxing match after it. As I say, in those days the sport was more honest, the best fought the best,there were no bullshit press conferences, or staged pushing matches. Shame the game has deteriorated so much.

Edited September 8, 2023 by jukel123

[gnasher16 30,118]

55 minutes ago, mC HULL said:

what faults is fury getting away with gnash ? 

apart from not knowing how to throw straight punches i don’t see many 

The fact that if you listed every quality Fury has they would nearly all end with the words " for a guy his size ".....should tell you everything you need to know.

He has an unorthodox style that works for him but its not a style you would teach to a youngster getting into boxing.....his erratic movement,his jerky feints without using them to throw powerful shots,his often pawing kind of jab thats used as a distance keeper,his leaning and holding to avoid fighting inside are all things that he gets away with without consequence due to his size,and he knows that so you cant hold it against him.......but try fighting like that with a 2 inch and 2 stone deficit and not a 6 inch and 4 stone advantage and you'll quickly see it come undone.

Why do you think his style changed so drastically around the second Chisora fight and stayed that way.....its because in his early career he was giving his height away and having tear ups that were leaving him on his arse against mediocre opposition.....his punch output is good ( again,for a guy his size ) but he often slaps a bit Calzaghe ish and rarely sits down on his punches as he knows it will leave him vulnerable.....nobody can blame Fury boxing the way he does you cant blame the player blame the game......but i still maintain if Fury was a middleweight he wouldnt even be a fringe contender on the world stage,not a chance.

Edited September 8, 2023 by gnasher16

[jukel123 8,017]

Just now, gnasher16 said:

The fact that if you listed every quality Fury has they would nearly all end with the words " for a guy his size ".....should tell you everything you need to know.

He has an unorthodox style that works for him but its not a style you would teach to a youngster getting into boxing.....his erratic movement,his jerky feints without using them to throw powerful shots,his often pawing kind of jab thats used as a distance keeper,his leaning and holding to avoid fighting inside are all things that he gets away with without consequence due to his size,and he knows that so you cant hold it against him.......but try fighting like that with a 2 inch and 2 stone deficit and not a 6 inch and 4 stone advantage and you'll quickly see it come undone.

Why do you think his style changed so drastically around the second Chisora fight and stayed that way.....its because in his early career he was giving his height away and having tear ups that were leaving him on his arse against mediocre opposition.....his punch output is good ( again,for a guy his size ) but he often slaps a bit Calzaghe ish and rarely sits down on his punches as he knows it will leave him vulnerable.....nobody can blame Fury as a fighter for boxing the way he does you cant blame the player blame the game......i still maintain if Fury was a middleweight boxing the way he boxes as a heavyweight he wouldnt even be a fringe contender on the world stage,not a chance.

I agree, when measuring a heavyweight, I always try and think how he would fare in the heavyweight scene of the 70s. Fury, AJ, Dubois would never have made sparring partners. And I'm not looking at the past with rose tinted spectacles.

[gnasher16 30,118]

1 minute ago, jukel123 said:

I agree, when measuring a heavyweight, I always try and think how he would fare in the heavyweight scene of the 70s. Fury, AJ, Dubois would never have made sparring partners. And I'm not looking at the past with rose tinted spectacles.

Or look at it another way....can you imagine what a 6 ft 9 & 19 stone Muhammad Ali would have been like with his sheer ability......or a 6 ft 9 & 19 stone Joe Frazier would have been like with his sheer will and determination......Foreman and on and on........the era's are simply immeasurable ( if thats a word )

[gnasher16 30,118]

31 minutes ago, jukel123 said:

I remember him as a come forward boxer. I've been re watching some of his fights. Top  notch. Everything was much more honest in those days. Terry Lawless must have had some fighters through his hands.

I particularly remember Kaylor because I remember him being interviewed and him saying he  could breathe a lot better because he had had a sinus operation. That encouraged me to go to the quack and eventually I had the same operation. I also remember the genuine street punch up with Christie. And the respectful boxing match after it. As I say, in those days the sport was more honest, the best fought the best,there were no bullshit press conferences, or staged pushing matches. Shame the game has deteriorated so much.

It was a time where there was almost a kind of innocence to boxing the whole Kaylor/Christie thing was billed as being a racial thing when in reality they just didnt like each other as men and thats fine.

Its probably similar to modern footballers/fighters having the power now,but back then young fighters were just pushed and pulled around as tools of the trade,lads like Mark had no power they were just being used by the cartel of the day and the longevity of your career wasnt important certainly not in London anyway Duff/Astaire/Barrett and the like had it all sewn up....Terry Lawless not so much even though he was part of it....to this day ive never met a kinder more genuine man than Terry he was massive in my early life and an absolute diamond within a very rough business so wouldnt book him in the same light as the others....but again maybe im just biased.

[mC HULL 12,498]

1 hour ago, gnasher16 said:

The fact that if you listed every quality Fury has they would nearly all end with the words " for a guy his size ".....should tell you everything you need to know.

He has an unorthodox style that works for him but its not a style you would teach to a youngster getting into boxing.....his erratic movement,his jerky feints without using them to throw powerful shots,his often pawing kind of jab thats used as a distance keeper,his leaning and holding to avoid fighting inside are all things that he gets away with without consequence due to his size,and he knows that so you cant hold it against him.......but try fighting like that with a 2 inch and 2 stone deficit and not a 6 inch and 4 stone advantage and you'll quickly see it come undone.

Why do you think his style changed so drastically around the second Chisora fight and stayed that way.....its because in his early career he was giving his height away and having tear ups that were leaving him on his arse against mediocre opposition.....his punch output is good ( again,for a guy his size ) but he often slaps a bit Calzaghe ish and rarely sits down on his punches as he knows it will leave him vulnerable.....nobody can blame Fury boxing the way he does you cant blame the player blame the game......but i still maintain if Fury was a middleweight he wouldnt even be a fringe contender on the world stage,not a chance.

good post gnash and  some good valid points made 

 

[mC HULL 12,498]

1 hour ago, jukel123 said:

I agree, when measuring a heavyweight, I always try and think how he would fare in the heavyweight scene of the 70s. Fury, AJ, Dubois would never have made sparring partners. And I'm not looking at the past with rose tinted spectacles.

i don’t agree with that mate fury would be hard for any of them to beat from any era 

[jukel123 8,017]

53 minutes ago, gnasher16 said:

It was a time where there was almost a kind of innocence to boxing the whole Kaylor/Christie thing was billed as being a racial thing when in reality they just didnt like each other as men and thats fine.

Its probably similar to modern footballers/fighters having the power now,but back then young fighters were just pushed and pulled around as tools of the trade,lads like Mark had no power they were just being used by the cartel of the day and the longevity of your career wasnt important certainly not in London anyway Duff/Astaire/Barrett and the like had it all sewn up....Terry Lawless not so much even though he was part of it....to this day ive never met a kinder more genuine man than Terry he was massive in my early life and an absolute diamond within a very rough business so wouldnt book him in the same light as the others....but again maybe im just biased.

Promoters were pretty much pimps in those days. I don't think any of the boxers of that time ever made any real  money. I imagine Hearn and Warren rip off their guys, but hopefully, not as blatantly.

[mC HULL 12,498]

1 minute ago, jukel123 said:

Promoters were pretty much pimps in those days. I don't think any of the boxers of that time ever made any real  money. I imagine Hearn and Warren rip off their guys, but hopefully, not as blatantly.

i recon hearn does a lot a good for his fighters gets them good fights for good money look at bellew crolla smith all world champions right fights right time 

even froch who was excellent made a lot more once he signed with hearn 

[jukel123 8,017]

1 hour ago, mC HULL said:

i don’t agree with that mate fury would be hard for any of them to beat from any era 

As has been said Fury has huge weight and height advantage. He's a bit like a kid in the playground who stands head and shoulders above the other kids and tells the other kids he's the hardest kid in the school, even though he's never proved it in a proper fight.

Fury imo, has never been in a proper fight, a war, with other boxers. Yes we've seen him on his arse  but never under sustained heavy pressure. I believe quite a few heavyweights from the past would have been capable of pushing him to his limit. You don't just put a man away with headshots. That flabby belly would have been perfect for Joe Frazier who would have laughed at anything Fury had to dish out. Jmho.

Edited September 8, 2023 by jukel123

[jukel123 8,017]

26 minutes ago, mC HULL said:

i recon hearn does a lot a good for his fighters gets them good fights for good money look at bellew crolla smith all world champions right fights right time 

even froch who was excellent made a lot more once he signed with hearn 

You  might be right mate, I don't know what their cut is tbh.

I do know the likes of Conor Benn and the young Fury make eye watering amounts of cash for f**k all. But that's the way boxing has changed.Good luck to them but it's hard on those who trod the path for them to make all that money.

Edited September 8, 2023 by jukel123

[gnasher16 30,118]

54 minutes ago, jukel123 said:

Promoters were pretty much pimps in those days. I don't think any of the boxers of that time ever made any real  money. I imagine Hearn and Warren rip off their guys, but hopefully, not as blatantly.

If you ask any young fighter of the 90's who they would choose to manage them they would say Frank Warren,if you asked any young fighter today they'll say Eddie Hearn and thats because of not only the fairness of the purses they end up with but the exposure they get,the facilities available to them.....back in the 80's only the very elite fighters didnt have to work a day job which for some of us who went in that direction that came as paid sparring partners which again today are a rarity.... Frank Brunos sparring partners for the Witherspoon fight in 86 were on a grand a week for the 6 week camp which was good wedge for the time....Gary Mason,God rest his soul didnt clear that much in the entire year which was i think 8 or 9 fights....i know this as its something we would laugh about in later years.....Lloyd Honeyghan won an undisputed belt and defended it 3 or 4 times but never made real life changing money......the cartel did but he didnt......world champions like Dennis Andries ended up as a security guard !.....the power back then in London was in the hands of 4 or 5 men and thats where young fighters today possibly not even on a level of some fighters back in those days need to be grateful.