Brindle Terriers

[neil cooney 10,416]

This is the "original Patterdale terrier".

It looks nothing like the dogs with that name today.

 

patterdalefromRichardClapham.jpg

 

Its funny how there are no photographs of smooth Black working terriers before the 70's.

If anyone has a photograph of a SMOOTH black working terrier perhaps they could post it on here.

 

When Lucas wrote his book in the 30's, he listed every type of working terrier known to man.

Shelbourne terriers and rare welsh types , even terriers from the US and Africa.

 

BUT not a single paragraph of a smooth black working terrier.

Strange really.

 

Lets call a spade a spade........the fell terrier was crossed with a black staff.

There is a photograph of the black staff with white chest markings out there with guys who visited the breeders yard.

That produced a smooth black Bull X Fell that worked well.

Hard bitten , excellent dogs and they became popular.

 

The first "Patterdales" seem to have appeared in Ireland around the 80's.

If they were around before that, Irish terriermen would have imported them.

You've fallen into the trap of talking about conformation p3d. I was talking about blood.

Show men and peddlers talk about what a terrier should look like, terriermen talk about ability. Ability that comes from good breeding.

Like I say, if some of you think that there's no lines of working terrier that haven't got bull in them then open your eyes.

It's usually those who keep white terriers that would love to think of the Patterdale as an out and out mongrel. But some of us know the truth from only being with honest lads who keep their terriers and records straight.

[neil cooney 10,416]

 

 

This is the "original Patterdale terrier".

It looks nothing like the dogs with that name today.

 

patterdalefromRichardClapham.jpg

 

Its funny how there are no photographs of smooth Black working terriers before the 70's.

If anyone has a photograph of a SMOOTH black working terrier perhaps they could post it on here.

 

When Lucas wrote his book in the 30's, he listed every type of working terrier known to man.

Shelbourne terriers and rare welsh types , even terriers from the US and Africa.

 

BUT not a single paragraph of a smooth black working terrier.

Strange really.

 

Lets call a spade a spade........the fell terrier was crossed with a black staff.

There is a photograph of the black staff with white chest markings out there with guys who visited the breeders yard.

That produced a smooth black Bull X Fell that worked well.

Hard bitten , excellent dogs and they became popular.

 

The first "Patterdales" seem to have appeared in Ireland around the 80's.

If they were around before that, Irish terriermen would have imported them.

So could to days patterdales be defined as a bull X.p3d...

 

 

King,

 

I don't know if I would call them a Bull X, IMO They have Bull blood in them and some strains more than others.

What defines them is their ability to work, and men who have them in their yard know better then anyone how good these dogs are.

 

My opinion is that a terrier strain that has bull X in its past does not make them any less a terrier.

 

Brindle in a strain gives a clue that bull is in the ancestry, Very tight smooth coats are another clue.

Head and jaw size are also a giveaway. Let us not fool ourselves that the black terriers today are anything to do with the fells or fell packs from the past.

 

Plummer in his book "The Fell Terrier" crafted a story that was a good read.

In particular if you look at the photographs of Tommy Dobson in the book you would think Tommy started the

Fell terrier in his kennels. Plummer was selective with those shots.

 

Take a look at the photos below.

This is Tommy with his terrier s from 1890 (a young Willie Porter behind him) to sometime into the early 1900's.

 

Not a black terrier in sight!.......but a lot of other terrier types.

 

Dobson in 1892 with his young protegé.jpg

 

Tommy (2nd from right) with his Eskdale Pack.jpg

 

Tommy Dobson-Dandie Lakey Russell.jpg

 

TommyDobson_1053.jpg

 

 

The last photograph is of a very early staff type of terrier (1910)

Not the fat things we see today but an athletic dog that would not be out of place in the pit.

It is possible that this type of terrier was used and would have brought the brindle coat colour into the lines.

 

staff1910-1.jpg

 

Tommy Dobson has always been linked more to Bedlington crosses than the Fell types so to use his dogs as an example is mis-leading.

[neil cooney 10,416]

 

Some excellent pics there p3d.im not clued up at all on Patterdale history.but it's posts like you've just put up that are invaluable to anyone interested in patterdales. So saying there's staff type blood in them.then obviously there's got to be certain lines out there carrying pbt blood. Which might contribute greatly to certain Patterdale lines being to hard for there own good.

 

King,

 

You are not alone, nobody is clued up on Patterdale history, IMO it does not exist as history should at least be older than one mans lifetime.

The men who created the smooth black terrier strain are still alive.

 

Right now what these men know as the truth is NEWS.

When they are gone, it may become history.

 

I met one of these men at a show in Ireland recently, a gent as far as I could see.

He had a van with pups for sale, no problem, if he wants to make a few pound from his dogs thats his choice.

 

But it struck me that it would be great if that man or his friends could write everything down before it is too late.

That would be writing history for terriermen in the future.

 

I disagree. Firstly Pierce O Conor mentions the Patterdale terrier in his book which was written in 1929.

Secondly the smooth black dogs can mostly be traced back to Frank Buck (died in the 80s) and Cyril Breays (died in the 70s) and there's photos of smooth working terrier back well before then.

Brian Nuttall gets a lot of the credit for todays Patterdales and that suits the critics because it's well known that bull was introduced into his terriers early on in their history. Same as a lot of the Smithy lines. It's no secret that bull was introduced there on and off through the years.

If lads think that all terriers have either Nuttall or Smithy in them then again ,they should do some research.

And those lines that did have bull or white terriers introduced into them many years ago mightn't have had any more outside blood introduced in many years since and that IMO makes them more pure than most so called pure breeds.

Not all history comes out of books p3d.

[p3d 879]

LOL

[taz2010 1,297]

the old fell dog,patterdale or whatever ya want to call them were all rough haired in the 60/70s and like as already been said smooth haired was never know until mid 70s which was created with adding different blood still know lads with good fell,patts or whatever still going strong in the lakes and still keeping the old breed

[p3d 879]

the old fell dog,patterdale or whatever ya want to call them were all rough haired in the 60/70s and like as already been said smooth haired was never know until mid 70s which was created with adding different blood still know lads with good fell,patts or whatever still going strong in the lakes and still keeping the old breed

 

Taz2010,

 

Have you ever heard or seen a brindle colour coming through in these Fell terriers litters?

[Shamo 319]

I suspect A GREAT DEAL of 'Working Terrier' Ancestry in the UK and Eire, will be taken to the Grave. Nice types 'tested' once or twice, found a bit hard, but put over a nice type of Fox killing Bitch anyway etc, etc!! Terriers with historically good producing Blood never dug to 'hard', but bred from none the less. I am lucky to be able to dig everything LEGALLY now and the Dogs used have never seen any Blood within the last 60 years except Terrier Blood, having been both 'line' and 'inbred' once breeding true to type. They have been tested, culled, bred, tested and then culled again....the only colour stipulation being Black and Tan, but still culled out of a breeding Programme if not suitable for the Jobs. So I I am led to believe....however their are 'Trials' here to help keep Pups with the right 'attitude' at least. The main problem is finding exclusively dug to Terriers, as they are so versatile they are used for a multitude of tasks. The size can be quite varied, as the 'Trials' are not realistic and a 17" un-spannable Terrier would not struggle to get there. The only obvious trait to see is the 'Attitude' they show when they do get there, again not realistic because these situations are monitored and they are 'lifted' after a while.......it does weed out the outright curs though and the ones who don't want to find, I suppose. Rubbish in every breed, but it's all down to % of failures in a 'line'.

I have seen Brindle Digging Terriers over the years, some rough and some smooth, all with obvious Bull traits of some sort. Adding Bull Blood is not a quick fix, it can take years again afterwards to get back the Terrier traits. I know of a breeding done first cross Russell/APBT. The Russell had a good working history and the Bitch was one of the cleverest and good Bitches of her 'type', with a VERY good Ancestry. There wasn't one 'keeper' in the resulting Litter, for one reason or another.

I suspect, 'back in the day', as the saying goes, colour or type didn't matter too much and if a Bull 'worked' then it was used regardless of colour, plus Brindle seems quite a strong colour, genetically. The Books tell us of a Brindley Bull borrowed, used and worked to cross in to a certain line. Nuttall had black Bull Bitches at his Kennel over the years and every now and then put Bull back in to his Terriers......so I am told. I guess that is no guarantee a 'throwback' might not raise it's head now and then. It happens with the tightest of bred Families of Dogs.

I, personally, would not pick a Brindle Pup from a Terrier Litter......my choice based purely on Aesthetics. My choice would be a proportioned Pup, with the darkest of Eyes, black Gums, Belly and Toes with no white Star or Bib. Obviously bold and forthcoming when put out on it's own, but that could be good 'socialising', not natural. Not too many about. If's, buts and maybe's.........

[neil cooney 10,416]

LOL

Bit of a puzzle that answer.

Funny how the three main lads on this thread who pretend to know all about the background of the black terriers don't even keep them.

It's like they want to ridicule them.

 

Mind you, Stopend is a wannabee black terrier owner. Hope that never happens, they're above him.

[Onlyworkmatters 1,584]

If say a hundred years ago bull blood was introduced to the terriers that gave rise to the so called patterdales and these terriers were mated to other terriers carrying some bull blood to a lesser or greater % or degree stands to reason that today's dogs will still and always will carry some bull blood

[Printer 34]

This article from the 1920/30's mentions the Patterdale/Ullswater/Lakeland as being the same.

Most colours described but not brindle.

 

 

 

[Daniel cain 45,143]

...

Edited April 13, 2016 by Daniel cain

[Daniel cain 45,143]

I've had brindle born from two black broken coated dogs with no added bull in them for at least 30yrs.atb dc

[neil cooney 10,416]

If say a hundred years ago bull blood was introduced to the terriers that gave rise to the so called patterdales and these terriers were mated to other terriers carrying some bull blood to a lesser or greater % or degree stands to reason that today's dogs will still and always will carry some bull blood

So where do you draw the line ?

Lord Orford put pit bull into his Greyhounds in the 1860s.

So has the Greyhound Board been wasting their time keeping a stud book all these years when in reality they just have bull lurchers ?

Don't be silly. What I'm saying is that there are plenty of lines of working terrier that have nothing added for the last umpteen generations, making them as pure as any breed.

But there's a few lads who think they know the lines of black terriers inside and out when they don't even keep them themselves.

It would fit them better to try and improve their own stock before commenting on the breeding of others.

JMHO.

[p3d 879]

This article from the 1920/30's mentions the Patterdale/Ullswater/Lakeland as being the same.

Most colours described but not brindle.

 

 

 

 

Printer,

 

That is the best bit of history that has been put up on this site for a long time.

If you zoom in on the image , on the bottom right hand corner, he mentions Brindle as a colour that was found in the Lowther kennels.

 

The article itself sheds a lot of light on the breeding programs of some of the hunt kennels when it comes to their terriers.

The documents mentioned at Lord Lonsdales kennel and one of the hunt kennels must be available somewhere.

 

Lowther Castle library should have them if they took so much care of them for hundreds of years.

 

ATB

P3D.

[Shamo 319]

If someone puts two Black Terriers together and get a Wolf let me know please........that would be some 'throwback'...lol. I can go back over 35 years on a particular 'Family' of APBT and I KNOW they are all APBT, as we know and think of them as. If I go back further and further to when the generations of imports were about, in the 1800's and early 1900's and beyond what would I find?.........Staff, Bulldog, Hound, some European type of Mastiff?! Man used Dogs for Jobs, not as Pets, like the modern day Man unfortunately thinks they should be!! Herding Dogs, Hunting Dogs, War Dogs and most had to do a mixture of all the Jobs. Then came in entertainment and 'sport' for fun and they started to selectively breed. Hard to believe these 'Tea Cup' things came from the same Genus as Great Danes etc....lol.

 

FECK KNOWS WHY I WENT OFF ON THIS 'TAC'!!!......LMAO. My age I expect.