English Bull And Their Crosses Thread.

[AKA-BRINDLE 879]

Groundhog day....

[DogFox123 1,379]

IMO the APBT is as close to the original bulldog as you can get. That's Bulldog, not Bull and Terrier. There's no terrier blood in the APBT.

There's no smoke without fire, IMO there's definitely Terrier in there. You'd have to be blind not to see it, of course certain strains that went over the pond had more Terrier blood in them whereas others had more Bulldog blood in them. Maybe the old Terriers added more than just speed and agility, gameness could have been a nice trait of theirs just like the Bulldog.

Edited July 12, 2016 by DogFox123

[Lenmcharristar 9,874]

Mix them n work them n find out which cross works best, worst case you got a few days sport from it

[neil cooney 10,416]

 

IMO the APBT is as close to the original bulldog as you can get. That's Bulldog, not Bull and Terrier. There's no terrier blood in the APBT.

There's no smoke without fire, IMO there's definitely Terrier in there. You'd have to be blind not to see it, of course certain strains that went over the pond had more Terrier blood in them whereas others had more Bulldog blood in them. Maybe the old Terriers added more than just speed and agility, gameness could have been a nice trait of theirs just like the Bulldog.

 

"You'd have to blind not to see it."

If you mean that by having 4 legs, a tail and a head they resemble a terrier then I agree but IMO that's where the similarity ends.

There's bull blood in most terriers if you go back far enough but there's no terrier blood in a proper bulldog.

[BGD 6,436]

How do you explain all the historical documents talking about crossing bulldogs and terriers for the fighting pits and the fact that they've been known as "bull & terriers" or some variation of the name for well over 100 years?

[DogFox123 1,379]

How do you explain all the historical documents talking about crossing bulldogs and terriers for the fighting pits and the fact that they've been known as "bull & terriers" or some variation of the name for well over 100 years?

That's what I'm saying, there's no smoke without fire. Rumours just don't appear from nowhere. It's plain to see with your own eyes Bulldogs that resemble Terriers. The Bulldog is a type not a breed, some families had more Terrier blood in them and others more Bulldog blood in them.

 

Speaking of Bullterrier's, Walter Komosinski, a famous dogman born in the late 1800's apparently used a game Bullterrier in his breeding program and he fought and beat the best dogmen of his time. It's plain to see that there's a Bullterrier type dog in his strain.

 

walter komosinski dogs - Google Search

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=walter+komosinski+dogs&client=ms-android-samsung&source=lnms&prmd=isnv&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiz1OiF_O_NAhUCOsAKHd8CBW0Q_AUIBygB&biw=360&bih=512#imgrc=wwd1QHjDdq65KM%3A

[Dead Eyes 681]

 

 

IMO the APBT is as close to the original bulldog as you can get. That's Bulldog, not Bull and Terrier. There's no terrier blood in the APBT.

There's no smoke without fire, IMO there's definitely Terrier in there. You'd have to be blind not to see it, of course certain strains that went over the pond had more Terrier blood in them whereas others had more Bulldog blood in them. Maybe the old Terriers added more than just speed and agility, gameness could have been a nice trait of theirs just like the Bulldog.

 

"You'd have to blind not to see it."

If you mean that by having 4 legs, a tail and a head they resemble a terrier then I agree but IMO that's where the similarity ends.

There's bull blood in most terriers if you go back far enough but there's no terrier blood in a proper bulldog.

 

 

 

Dont be daft

 

 

Have you seen the size of the small little things that started the strain over there? High 20's and low 30's bull and terriers were rife. They've been mixed with all sorts over the years. You can see it in ear carriage and the like, particularly around the modern Mayday/RBJBT dogs imo.

 

 

I cant remember the strain but there was a big mixed mutt that fought cw and was bred. He was a scrapyard dog if I remember right.

[neil cooney 10,416]

The American Pit Bull Terrier is very much a breed. Forget about colour and ear carriage and all that other nonsense. That's conformation and has nothing to do with a pedigree of a dog bred to do a job.

The APBT aka The Bulldog is as pure bred as dogs come and tracing their ancestor's is not hard and in all the pedigrees going back to the late 1800s I have never ever seen an outcross to a terrier. How much farther do you need to go back.

Think about it, breeding small dogs to go under ground has been around for less than 300 years but the need for large powerful fighting types has been around for over a thousand years.

When dogfighting became popular the fighting breeds were made smaller for the pit but IMO this was done by breeding from smaller fighting types not by outcrossing to a terrier.

Why would you use a small type of hunting dog that has to stand back and bay (which is the type used back then) to breed into a breed that must be full on using his mouth to hold and fight an opponent ???

Yes, I'm sure crosses between the two were made for the rat pits and they were called bull and terriers but I've never heard of the blood from any rat pit dogs make their way into any lines of fighters.

Fighting dogs for the last couple of centuries have been bred fighter to fighter and in the case of the EBT that most certainly is not the case.

Not into dogfighting myself but the history and pedigrees of that fascinating breed (the APBT) is there for anyone to see.

[BGD 6,436]

Trace those dogs back to the late 1800s and what were they called? Bull terriers or pit bull terriers. There's plenty of historical documents (newspaper ads, old game dog publications, personal records of breeders) dating from that time that called the dogs used for dog fighting bull terriers

 

Why the name if there's no terrier blood?

[DogFox123 1,379]

The American Pit Bull Terrier is very much a breed. Forget about colour and ear carriage and all that other nonsense. That's conformation and has nothing to do with a pedigree of a dog bred to do a job.

The APBT aka The Bulldog is as pure bred as dogs come and tracing their ancestor's is not hard and in all the pedigrees going back to the late 1800s I have never ever seen an outcross to a terrier. How much farther do you need to go back.

Think about it, breeding small dogs to go under ground has been around for less than 300 years but the need for large powerful fighting types has been around for over a thousand years.

When dogfighting became popular the fighting breeds were made smaller for the pit but IMO this was done by breeding from smaller fighting types not by outcrossing to a terrier.

Why would you use a small type of hunting dog that has to stand back and bay (which is the type used back then) to breed into a breed that must be full on using his mouth to hold and fight an opponent ???

Yes, I'm sure crosses between the two were made for the rat pits and they were called bull and terriers but I've never heard of the blood from any rat pit dogs make their way into any lines of fighters.

Fighting dogs for the last couple of centuries have been bred fighter to fighter and in the case of the EBT that most certainly is not the case.

Not into dogfighting myself but the history and pedigrees of that fascinating breed (the APBT) is there for anyone to see.

Of course it's as pure as any dog breed out there because all breeds are a mixture of different dogs somewhere down the line. If there's no Terrier blood in there then why is there so many historical articles and writings stating otherwise? I don't buy the opinion that Terrier blood was added just to downsize the dogs for the pits, there must have been a benefit to their fighting ability when these crosses were made. You don't cross a Racehorse with a Donkey to make it faster. The EBT is nothing but a showdog but like I said, it's ancestor's were likely Pit dogs of the past, the same with the Staff. Form follows function, the Staff and the EBT are offshoots of the working Bull and Terrier (APBT) Edited July 13, 2016 by DogFox123

[Dead Eyes 681]

I'm following Neil, no recent terrier additions you are saying

 

In which case, agreed

[neil cooney 10,416]

 

The American Pit Bull Terrier is very much a breed. Forget about colour and ear carriage and all that other nonsense. That's conformation and has nothing to do with a pedigree of a dog bred to do a job.

The APBT aka The Bulldog is as pure bred as dogs come and tracing their ancestor's is not hard and in all the pedigrees going back to the late 1800s I have never ever seen an outcross to a terrier. How much farther do you need to go back.

Think about it, breeding small dogs to go under ground has been around for less than 300 years but the need for large powerful fighting types has been around for over a thousand years.

When dogfighting became popular the fighting breeds were made smaller for the pit but IMO this was done by breeding from smaller fighting types not by outcrossing to a terrier.

Why would you use a small type of hunting dog that has to stand back and bay (which is the type used back then) to breed into a breed that must be full on using his mouth to hold and fight an opponent ???

Yes, I'm sure crosses between the two were made for the rat pits and they were called bull and terriers but I've never heard of the blood from any rat pit dogs make their way into any lines of fighters.

Fighting dogs for the last couple of centuries have been bred fighter to fighter and in the case of the EBT that most certainly is not the case.

Not into dogfighting myself but the history and pedigrees of that fascinating breed (the APBT) is there for anyone to see.

Of course it's as pure as any dog breed out there because all breeds are a mixture of different dogs somewhere down the line. If there's no Terrier blood in there then why is there so many historical articles and writings stating otherwise? I don't buy the opinion that Terrier blood was added just to downsize the dogs for the pits, there must have been a benefit to their fighting ability when these crosses were made. You don't cross a Racehorse with a Donkey to make it faster. The EBT is nothing but a showdog but like I said, it's ancestor's were likely Pit dogs of the past, the same with the Staff. Form follows function, the Staff and the EBT are offshoots of the working Bull and Terrier (APBT)

 

Putting a donkey across a racehorse to make it faster would be the same as putting terrier into bulldogs to make them gamer, think about it.

As for putting terrier into a line of bulldog ? When did this happen ? Where's the pedigrees and proof ? Where did it happen ?

If it happened in Ireland where bulldogs started going to the states before the famine then the terrier used would probably have to have been the rough coated breed indigenous to Ireland. How come no bulldog has ever come broken coated ?

If it happened in Britain what terrier outcross was used ? The white sounding type ? What would that bring to the table ?

The Northern Fell types ? The lakes was no a stronghold for the bull types that Britain was famous for.

The Blue Paul was in Scotland. If the working terriers of Scotland were used ,again, they're all hairy coated.

One thing's for sure, the Yanks DID NOT put terrier blood into the bulldog once they got their hands on it.

As for the ancestors of the EBT being fighting dogs ?????

Who are the men that fought Dalmations and English White Terriers ?

[Lenmcharristar 9,874]

Couple of good posts on here, different opinions but all good reading

[Lenmcharristar 9,874]

 

 

The American Pit Bull Terrier is very much a breed. Forget about colour and ear carriage and all that other nonsense. That's conformation and has nothing to do with a pedigree of a dog bred to do a job.

The APBT aka The Bulldog is as pure bred as dogs come and tracing their ancestor's is not hard and in all the pedigrees going back to the late 1800s I have never ever seen an outcross to a terrier. How much farther do you need to go back.

Think about it, breeding small dogs to go under ground has been around for less than 300 years but the need for large powerful fighting types has been around for over a thousand years.

When dogfighting became popular the fighting breeds were made smaller for the pit but IMO this was done by breeding from smaller fighting types not by outcrossing to a terrier.

Why would you use a small type of hunting dog that has to stand back and bay (which is the type used back then) to breed into a breed that must be full on using his mouth to hold and fight an opponent ???

Yes, I'm sure crosses between the two were made for the rat pits and they were called bull and terriers but I've never heard of the blood from any rat pit dogs make their way into any lines of fighters.

Fighting dogs for the last couple of centuries have been bred fighter to fighter and in the case of the EBT that most certainly is not the case.

Not into dogfighting myself but the history and pedigrees of that fascinating breed (the APBT) is there for anyone to see.

 

Of course it's as pure as any dog breed out there because all breeds are a mixture of different dogs somewhere down the line. If there's no Terrier blood in there then why is there so many historical articles and writings stating otherwise? I don't buy the opinion that Terrier blood was added just to downsize the dogs for the pits, there must have been a benefit to their fighting ability when these crosses were made. You don't cross a Racehorse with a Donkey to make it faster. The EBT is nothing but a showdog but like I said, it's ancestor's were likely Pit dogs of the past, the same with the Staff. Form follows function, the Staff and the EBT are offshoots of the working Bull and Terrier (APBT)

Putting a donkey across a racehorse to make it faster would be the same as putting terrier into bulldogs to make them gamer, think about it.

As for putting terrier into a line of bulldog ? When did this happen ? Where's the pedigrees and proof ? Where did it happen ?

If it happened in Ireland where bulldogs started going to the states before the famine then the terrier used would probably have to have been the rough coated breed indigenous to Ireland. How come no bulldog has ever come broken coated ?

If it happened in Britain what terrier outcross was used ? The white sounding type ? What would that bring to the table ?

The Northern Fell types ? The lakes was no a stronghold for the bull types that Britain was famous for.

The Blue Paul was in Scotland. If the working terriers of Scotland were used ,again, they're all hairy coated.

One thing's for sure, the Yanks DID NOT put terrier blood into the bulldog once they got their hands on it.

As for the ancestors of the EBT being fighting dogs ?????

Who are the men that fought Dalmations and English White Terriers ?

but who were the men that owned the Bulldogs that went into its makeup? More than just Dalmatian and white terrier

[DogFox123 1,379]

 

 

 

The American Pit Bull Terrier is very much a breed. Forget about colour and ear carriage and all that other nonsense. That's conformation and has nothing to do with a pedigree of a dog bred to do a job.

The APBT aka The Bulldog is as pure bred as dogs come and tracing their ancestor's is not hard and in all the pedigrees going back to the late 1800s I have never ever seen an outcross to a terrier. How much farther do you need to go back.

Think about it, breeding small dogs to go under ground has been around for less than 300 years but the need for large powerful fighting types has been around for over a thousand years.

When dogfighting became popular the fighting breeds were made smaller for the pit but IMO this was done by breeding from smaller fighting types not by outcrossing to a terrier.

Why would you use a small type of hunting dog that has to stand back and bay (which is the type used back then) to breed into a breed that must be full on using his mouth to hold and fight an opponent ???

Yes, I'm sure crosses between the two were made for the rat pits and they were called bull and terriers but I've never heard of the blood from any rat pit dogs make their way into any lines of fighters.

Fighting dogs for the last couple of centuries have been bred fighter to fighter and in the case of the EBT that most certainly is not the case.

Not into dogfighting myself but the history and pedigrees of that fascinating breed (the APBT) is there for anyone to see.

Of course it's as pure as any dog breed out there because all breeds are a mixture of different dogs somewhere down the line. If there's no Terrier blood in there then why is there so many historical articles and writings stating otherwise? I don't buy the opinion that Terrier blood was added just to downsize the dogs for the pits, there must have been a benefit to their fighting ability when these crosses were made. You don't cross a Racehorse with a Donkey to make it faster. The EBT is nothing but a showdog but like I said, it's ancestor's were likely Pit dogs of the past, the same with the Staff. Form follows function, the Staff and the EBT are offshoots of the working Bull and Terrier (APBT)

Putting a donkey across a racehorse to make it faster would be the same as putting terrier into bulldogs to make them gamer, think about it.

As for putting terrier into a line of bulldog ? When did this happen ? Where's the pedigrees and proof ? Where did it happen ?

If it happened in Ireland where bulldogs started going to the states before the famine then the terrier used would probably have to have been the rough coated breed indigenous to Ireland. How come no bulldog has ever come broken coated ?

If it happened in Britain what terrier outcross was used ? The white sounding type ? What would that bring to the table ?

The Northern Fell types ? The lakes was no a stronghold for the bull types that Britain was famous for.

The Blue Paul was in Scotland. If the working terriers of Scotland were used ,again, they're all hairy coated.

One thing's for sure, the Yanks DID NOT put terrier blood into the bulldog once they got their hands on it.

As for the ancestors of the EBT being fighting dogs ?????

Who are the men that fought Dalmations and English White Terriers ?

You know the reasoning why Terrier blood was added to the Bulldog for the sport of Dogfighting. I don't go along with the general consensus that it was after the ban on Bull baiting in 1835 as near around that time the Irish started emigrating to America with their prized pets. Of course I don't know exactly dates and such but like I said, why is there so many historical articles and writeups confirming the Bull and Terrier type dogs? You do know the Irish got their Pit Dogs from England?

 

You think the Yanks only got their dogs from the British Isles? What about the Spanish and their dogs?

 

Who said the White Terrier and the Dalmation were fought?