Otters

[MIK 4,756]

Picked up of the road in the middle of a village ....great animals ....had to inform police

[MIK 4,756]

 

 

I would say that the floods won't really effect otters, in general, that much. They often come off the main rivers in winter anyway and certainly do so when the water is coloured. But this is all normal for them anyway as they are incredible travellers. The males especially so. Typically an otter will work on a 12-21 day cycle, returning to the food source and to mark their territory. There's loads of otters about, and today the motor car is their only 'predator'.

 

I would disagree regarding otters and flooding ....our rivers flood more and more these days due to drainage on the grouse moores when I was young the river would rise in a few days then peak and drop back in a few days now it's up and down in 24 hours we will have about 2-3 big waters every year now and we find signs of them away from the river when this happens .....last week we had the huge floods and I picked up a dog otter of the road at 2 am in the middle of a village about 2 miles from the river ...I would imagine he would of been holed up and was washed out and become disorientated ...a real shame an animal like this killed by a car

But otters travel a long way from water on a regular basis MIK, so maybe it was going about it's routine when it got hit by a car.? The otter can, and does, wander miles away from a river, flood or no flood. I have seen a few RTA otters a mile or more from a river and I know of one carp fishery hit by an otter that is about 2 miles from a river and surrounded on two sides by houses. Could this not be the case do you think?

In this case I would of said it was the flood that put this otter where it was ...this was the worst flood in living memory and watched how quick the river came up it was at least 2 miles away from the main river with only a small burn in that area that runs over a cliff face into the sea and the nearest river that would be big enough to hold an otter would be the river Bervie about 10 miles north of this ...I know where every holt and every bit of cover that holds an otter on about a 4 mile stretch of this river and this isn't the resident dog on that stretch he only weighed 17 lbs a lot smaller than the big dog that we see regular ly ... I agree they will travel and we see this on the hill where we have found they will travel up the small burns at night to hunt then return down to hold up during the day on the main river ...especially when there is snow you can see marks of them right out on the hill right near the tops .....in the spring time they will head right on to the hill feeding on frog spawn in the small peat splashes ....probably my favourite animal and I wish I had been alive when it was legal to hunt them and from what I've heard from old timers the ultimate test for a terrier

[J Darcy 5,871]

 

 

 

I would say that the floods won't really effect otters, in general, that much. They often come off the main rivers in winter anyway and certainly do so when the water is coloured. But this is all normal for them anyway as they are incredible travellers. The males especially so. Typically an otter will work on a 12-21 day cycle, returning to the food source and to mark their territory. There's loads of otters about, and today the motor car is their only 'predator'.

I would disagree regarding otters and flooding ....our rivers flood more and more these days due to drainage on the grouse moores when I was young the river would rise in a few days then peak and drop back in a few days now it's up and down in 24 hours we will have about 2-3 big waters every year now and we find signs of them away from the river when this happens .....last week we had the huge floods and I picked up a dog otter of the road at 2 am in the middle of a village about 2 miles from the river ...I would imagine he would of been holed up and was washed out and become disorientated ...a real shame an animal like this killed by a car

But otters travel a long way from water on a regular basis MIK, so maybe it was going about it's routine when it got hit by a car.? The otter can, and does, wander miles away from a river, flood or no flood. I have seen a few RTA otters a mile or more from a river and I know of one carp fishery hit by an otter that is about 2 miles from a river and surrounded on two sides by houses. Could this not be the case do you think?

In this case I would of said it was the flood that put this otter where it was ...this was the worst flood in living memory and watched how quick the river came up it was at least 2 miles away from the main river with only a small burn in that area that runs over a cliff face into the sea and the nearest river that would be big enough to hold an otter would be the river Bervie about 10 miles north of this ...I know where every holt and every bit of cover that holds an otter on about a 4 mile stretch of this river and this isn't the resident dog on that stretch he only weighed 17 lbs a lot smaller than the big dog that we see regular ly ... I agree they will travel and we see this on the hill where we have found they will travel up the small burns at night to hunt then return down to hold up during the day on the main river ...especially when there is snow you can see marks of them right out on the hill right near the tops .....in the spring time they will head right on to the hill feeding on frog spawn in the small peat splashes ....probably my favourite animal and I wish I had been alive when it was legal to hunt them and from what I've heard from old timers the ultimate test for a terrier

 

MIK, do you not think that it was maybe a young dog that over-lapping the territory slightly with the 'mature' dog?

 

I just think that floods do not pose any problems to adult otters at all. They're just so adaptable and amazing in water. And, besides, would you not think that he was living on the small burn anyway? Also I disagree that they travel down to the main river to 'sleep'. I think that they hole up on small streams/ in bramble cover as often as not. They are an amazing mammal.

 

p.s, Are you sure they're not feeding on the frogs, not the spawn? I've found large cache's of frogs (and toads) bitten through their back and paralised. It breaks my heart when I see a pile of fifty frogs, still alive, all bitten through the back. I know it's nature, but I don't like seeing that....

[MIK 4,756]

I have hunted ,shot,snared,Lamped,dug,and trapped the immediate ground around this village for many years and have never seen signs of otter on it ....then the night of the worst floods in living memory while coming back from lamping I find on dead on the road at 2am is why I conclude the floods had caused this .....with the utter devastation and sheer magnitude of water I doubt there were many creatures worried about who's territory they were on that night but we're just concerned about getting away from it and surviving .

No this otter would not of been staying on this burn there would be no food source what so ever it is just drainage from arable land .

I can guarentee you that on the hill where there are hundreds of small burns running into the main river they travel up them at night hunting then will dop back down the main river early morning to holt up

[J Darcy 5,871]

I have hunted ,shot,snared,Lamped,dug,and trapped the immediate ground around this village for many years and have never seen signs of otter on it ....then the night of the worst floods in living memory while coming back from lamping I find on dead on the road at 2am is why I conclude the floods had caused this .....with the utter devastation and sheer magnitude of water I doubt there were many creatures worried about who's territory they were on that night but we're just concerned about getting away from it and surviving .

No this otter would not of been staying on this burn there would be no food source what so ever it is just drainage from arable land .

I can guarentee you that on the hill where there are hundreds of small burns running into the main river they travel up them at night hunting then will dop back down the main river early morning to holt up

[frankel 2,123]

Been talking to a guy today about it and he reckons it was heading towards the sea/shore for the crabs and crayfish and what ever else could get over there. He reckons he's seen them there. Which is about half a mile maybe further from the pond and even further to nearest river ( derwent )

 

I didn't realise they traveled so far I thought they would have a small territory.

[EDDIE B 3,166]

Eddie, I know Mink are your specialty so maybe I'm not qualified to argue, but I do think that the Otter does have an impact on the Mink population in SOME areas.

I live in an area with one of the highest populations of Otters in Ireland, and they aint rare in Ireland, never were. I love tracking them.

The Otter is every bit the opportunist that the Mink is and when fishing is hard the Otter wont starve. Wildfowl, domestic poultry and rabbits are all fair game.

I know all the tiny streams that the Otters head up when the floods come and some of these streams are tiny and IMO the Otter either keeps the Mink away or predates on them.

IMO the only time the Otter suffers in hard weather is during the Spring when the cubs will drown in their holts.

Yea an Otter will take a Mink if the opportunity arises, but he's only king in the water, and so only has an advantage over the mink in open water!

 

Think about it! A Mink has any amount of nooks and cranny's to pop into, when out of the water! Places an Otter can't get to!

 

Also, are they really in competition for the same Pray! The way i see it, Otter mainly feed on fish, with the odd bird, rabbit, frog thrown in! Mink mainly pray on frogs, rats, rabbit, with the odd fish thrown in!

 

Otters hate Mink, that much is true, just like Mink hate Stoats! They see them as competition, and want to eliminate them!

 

Remember seeing a YouTube video a while back where it showed an Otter storing some fish it caught! A while later it showed a Mink, stealing each fish, one by one! That Mink wasn't too worried about the Other, but he was playing a dangerous game for sure!

[3175darren 1,100]

It is without doubt the floods affect otters, but like any other animal they seek rest-bite from the flood I have them behind the house, also I have the odd mink, they turn up mainly after the first sea trout/ salmon run, which doesn't cause too much of a issue if there's enough fish, they stay then hunting the river, in my job I come across them fairly regular run over, I have never seen the kits or found there tracks, only adults which in its self is strange, I know people like to see them and they are Bonny things to watch,but like said earlier,like the badger, they have a very bigoted group of followers, who refuse to see/ or recognise there true affect on the rivers and surrounding areas, they will follow any water course, or even a straight hedge,away from a river, I have heard but not seen for myself of them circling weak lambs, on the rivers edge, they along with a over population of badgers, and buzzards every where you look,I don't know how stuff survives, bring back the otter packs and control them, in more manageable numbers, I know this won't go down well with most,but it has to be said,

[MIK 4,756]

 

I have hunted ,shot,snared,Lamped,dug,and trapped the immediate ground around this village for many years and have never seen signs of otter on it ....then the night of the worst floods in living memory while coming back from lamping I find on dead on the road at 2am is why I conclude the floods had caused this .....with the utter devastation and sheer magnitude of water I doubt there were many creatures worried about who's territory they were on that night but we're just concerned about getting away from it and surviving .

No this otter would not of been staying on this burn there would be no food source what so ever it is just drainage from arable land .I can guarentee you that on the hill where there are hundreds of small burns running into the main river they travel up them at night hunting then will dop back down the main river early morning to holt up

 

Spot on that statement!

We both know and we both know why !

[neil cooney 10,416]

 

Eddie, I know Mink are your specialty so maybe I'm not qualified to argue, but I do think that the Otter does have an impact on the Mink population in SOME areas.

I live in an area with one of the highest populations of Otters in Ireland, and they aint rare in Ireland, never were. I love tracking them.

The Otter is every bit the opportunist that the Mink is and when fishing is hard the Otter wont starve. Wildfowl, domestic poultry and rabbits are all fair game.

I know all the tiny streams that the Otters head up when the floods come and some of these streams are tiny and IMO the Otter either keeps the Mink away or predates on them.

IMO the only time the Otter suffers in hard weather is during the Spring when the cubs will drown in their holts.

Yea an Otter will take a Mink if the opportunity arises, but he's only king in the water, and so only has an advantage over the mink in open water!

 

Think about it! A Mink has any amount of nooks and cranny's to pop into, when out of the water! Places an Otter can't get to!

 

Also, are they really in competition for the same Pray! The way i see it, Otter mainly feed on fish, with the odd bird, rabbit, frog thrown in! Mink mainly pray on frogs, rats, rabbit, with the odd fish thrown in!

 

Otters hate Mink, that much is true, just like Mink hate Stoats! They see them as competition, and want to eliminate them!

 

Remember seeing a YouTube video a while back where it showed an Otter storing some fish it caught! A while later it showed a Mink, stealing each fish, one by one! That Mink wasn't too worried about the Other, but he was playing a dangerous game for sure!

 

Again Eddie, I wont pretend to know more than yourself (loved the photo of the carp in Dunnes Stores, the Polish will be so happy) but I find it hard to believe that an Otter would store anything.

They are a very wasteful predator, without a doubt.

Old Tarka does kill for fun, I've witnessed it. I've seen him do it and leave the evidence behind of kills he's made that anglers can only dream of making in a lifetime and I'm not talking about the man made fisheries that the British are now suffering from Otter predation. I'm talking about wild fisheries.

I'm not talking as an angler by the way, I love to see wildlife as much as I love to see a good hunt but the Otter IMO is a villain, LOL, but I mean that in a good way.

[perthshire keeper 1,239]

 

 

Eddie, I know Mink are your specialty so maybe I'm not qualified to argue, but I do think that the Otter does have an impact on the Mink population in SOME areas.

I live in an area with one of the highest populations of Otters in Ireland, and they aint rare in Ireland, never were. I love tracking them.

The Otter is every bit the opportunist that the Mink is and when fishing is hard the Otter wont starve. Wildfowl, domestic poultry and rabbits are all fair game.

I know all the tiny streams that the Otters head up when the floods come and some of these streams are tiny and IMO the Otter either keeps the Mink away or predates on them.

IMO the only time the Otter suffers in hard weather is during the Spring when the cubs will drown in their holts.

Yea an Otter will take a Mink if the opportunity arises, but he's only king in the water, and so only has an advantage over the mink in open water!

 

Think about it! A Mink has any amount of nooks and cranny's to pop into, when out of the water! Places an Otter can't get to!

 

Also, are they really in competition for the same Pray! The way i see it, Otter mainly feed on fish, with the odd bird, rabbit, frog thrown in! Mink mainly pray on frogs, rats, rabbit, with the odd fish thrown in!

 

Otters hate Mink, that much is true, just like Mink hate Stoats! They see them as competition, and want to eliminate them!

 

Remember seeing a YouTube video a while back where it showed an Otter storing some fish it caught! A while later it showed a Mink, stealing each fish, one by one! That Mink wasn't too worried about the Other, but he was playing a dangerous game for sure!

 

Again Eddie, I wont pretend to know more than yourself (loved the photo of the carp in Dunnes Stores, the Polish will be so happy) but I find it hard to believe that an Otter would store anything.

They are a very wasteful predator, without a doubt.

Old Tarka does kill for fun, I've witnessed it. I've seen him do it and leave the evidence behind of kills he's made that anglers can only dream of making in a lifetime and I'm not talking about the man made fisheries that the British are now suffering from Otter predation. I'm talking about wild fisheries.

I'm not talking as an angler by the way, I love to see wildlife as much as I love to see a good hunt but the Otter IMO is a villain, LOL, but I mean that in a good way.

 

i have a deep love hate relationship with otter...

I have been on the end of the damage they have done to fish and game and its as bad as any fox damage ive ever seen and likely worse!

yet I found a cub the size of a ferret in a flood when I was keepering and kept it for 3 years, a little bitch called honey, house trained and would walk with me for miles...so I know full well what a enchanting little creature they are.

ive seen them on the lamp..i know their slides and runs...I know their holts and Ive seen them drop in when minking....and my only regret is I cant hunt this wonderful animal

 

[3175darren 1,100]

 

 

 

Eddie, I know Mink are your specialty so maybe I'm not qualified to argue, but I do think that the Otter does have an impact on the Mink population in SOME areas.

I live in an area with one of the highest populations of Otters in Ireland, and they aint rare in Ireland, never were. I love tracking them.

The Otter is every bit the opportunist that the Mink is and when fishing is hard the Otter wont starve. Wildfowl, domestic poultry and rabbits are all fair game.

I know all the tiny streams that the Otters head up when the floods come and some of these streams are tiny and IMO the Otter either keeps the Mink away or predates on them.

IMO the only time the Otter suffers in hard weather is during the Spring when the cubs will drown in their holts.

 

Yea an Otter will take a Mink if the opportunity arises, but he's only king in the water, and so only has an advantage over the mink in open water!

Think about it! A Mink has any amount of nooks and cranny's to pop into, when out of the water! Places an Otter can't get to!

Also, are they really in competition for the same Pray! The way i see it, Otter mainly feed on fish, with the odd bird, rabbit, frog thrown in! Mink mainly pray on frogs, rats, rabbit, with the odd fish thrown in!

Otters hate Mink, that much is true, just like Mink hate Stoats! They see them as competition, and want to eliminate them!

Remember seeing a YouTube video a while back where it showed an Otter storing some fish it caught! A while later it showed a Mink, stealing each fish, one by one! That Mink wasn't too worried about the Other, but he was playing a dangerous game for sure!

Again Eddie, I wont pretend to know more than yourself (loved the photo of the carp in Dunnes Stores, the Polish will be so happy) but I find it hard to believe that an Otter would store anything.

They are a very wasteful predator, without a doubt.

Old Tarka does kill for fun, I've witnessed it. I've seen him do it and leave the evidence behind of kills he's made that anglers can only dream of making in a lifetime and I'm not talking about the man made fisheries that the British are now suffering from Otter predation. I'm talking about wild fisheries.

I'm not talking as an angler by the way, I love to see wildlife as much as I love to see a good hunt but the Otter IMO is a villain, LOL, but I mean that in a good way.

i have a deep love hate relationship with otter...

 

I have been on the end of the damage they have done to fish and game and its as bad as any fox damage ive ever seen and likely worse!

yet I found a cub the size of a ferret in a flood when I was keepering and kept it for 3 years, a little bitch called honey, house trained and would walk with me for miles...so I know full well what a enchanting little creature they are.

ive seen them on the lamp..i know their slides and runs...I know their holts and Ive seen them drop in when minking....and my only regret is I cant hunt this wonderful animal

 

 

 

Eddie, I know Mink are your specialty so maybe I'm not qualified to argue, but I do think that the Otter does have an impact on the Mink population in SOME areas.

I live in an area with one of the highest populations of Otters in Ireland, and they aint rare in Ireland, never were. I love tracking them.

The Otter is every bit the opportunist that the Mink is and when fishing is hard the Otter wont starve. Wildfowl, domestic poultry and rabbits are all fair game.

I know all the tiny streams that the Otters head up when the floods come and some of these streams are tiny and IMO the Otter either keeps the Mink away or predates on them.

IMO the only time the Otter suffers in hard weather is during the Spring when the cubs will drown in their holts.

 

Yea an Otter will take a Mink if the opportunity arises, but he's only king in the water, and so only has an advantage over the mink in open water!

Think about it! A Mink has any amount of nooks and cranny's to pop into, when out of the water! Places an Otter can't get to!

Also, are they really in competition for the same Pray! The way i see it, Otter mainly feed on fish, with the odd bird, rabbit, frog thrown in! Mink mainly pray on frogs, rats, rabbit, with the odd fish thrown in!

Otters hate Mink, that much is true, just like Mink hate Stoats! They see them as competition, and want to eliminate them!

Remember seeing a YouTube video a while back where it showed an Otter storing some fish it caught! A while later it showed a Mink, stealing each fish, one by one! That Mink wasn't too worried about the Other, but he was playing a dangerous game for sure!

Again Eddie, I wont pretend to know more than yourself (loved the photo of the carp in Dunnes Stores, the Polish will be so happy) but I find it hard to believe that an Otter would store anything.

They are a very wasteful predator, without a doubt.

Old Tarka does kill for fun, I've witnessed it. I've seen him do it and leave the evidence behind of kills he's made that anglers can only dream of making in a lifetime and I'm not talking about the man made fisheries that the British are now suffering from Otter predation. I'm talking about wild fisheries.

I'm not talking as an angler by the way, I love to see wildlife as much as I love to see a good hunt but the Otter IMO is a villain, LOL, but I mean that in a good way.

i have a deep love hate relationship with otter...

 

I have been on the end of the damage they have done to fish and game and its as bad as any fox damage ive ever seen and likely worse!

yet I found a cub the size of a ferret in a flood when I was keepering and kept it for 3 years, a little bitch called honey, house trained and would walk with me for miles...so I know full well what a enchanting little creature they are.

ive seen them on the lamp..i know their slides and runs...I know their holts and Ive seen them drop in when minking....and my only regret is I cant hunt this wonderful animal

Here Here well said

[EDDIE B 3,166]

 

 

 

Eddie, I know Mink are your specialty so maybe I'm not qualified to argue, but I do think that the Otter does have an impact on the Mink population in SOME areas.

I live in an area with one of the highest populations of Otters in Ireland, and they aint rare in Ireland, never were. I love tracking them.

The Otter is every bit the opportunist that the Mink is and when fishing is hard the Otter wont starve. Wildfowl, domestic poultry and rabbits are all fair game.

I know all the tiny streams that the Otters head up when the floods come and some of these streams are tiny and IMO the Otter either keeps the Mink away or predates on them.

IMO the only time the Otter suffers in hard weather is during the Spring when the cubs will drown in their holts.

Yea an Otter will take a Mink if the opportunity arises, but he's only king in the water, and so only has an advantage over the mink in open water!

 

Think about it! A Mink has any amount of nooks and cranny's to pop into, when out of the water! Places an Otter can't get to!

 

Also, are they really in competition for the same Pray! The way i see it, Otter mainly feed on fish, with the odd bird, rabbit, frog thrown in! Mink mainly pray on frogs, rats, rabbit, with the odd fish thrown in!

 

Otters hate Mink, that much is true, just like Mink hate Stoats! They see them as competition, and want to eliminate them!

 

Remember seeing a YouTube video a while back where it showed an Otter storing some fish it caught! A while later it showed a Mink, stealing each fish, one by one! That Mink wasn't too worried about the Other, but he was playing a dangerous game for sure!

Again Eddie, I wont pretend to know more than yourself (loved the photo of the carp in Dunnes Stores, the Polish will be so happy) but I find it hard to believe that an Otter would store anything.

They are a very wasteful predator, without a doubt.

Old Tarka does kill for fun, I've witnessed it. I've seen him do it and leave the evidence behind of kills he's made that anglers can only dream of making in a lifetime and I'm not talking about the man made fisheries that the British are now suffering from Otter predation. I'm talking about wild fisheries.

I'm not talking as an angler by the way, I love to see wildlife as much as I love to see a good hunt but the Otter IMO is a villain, LOL, but I mean that in a good way.

Neil apologies, your spot on there! The Otter is a very wasteful animal! Had to look at the video again! Long time since I half arsed viewed it! It was a bait station, baited with small fish, and a trail cam mounted! Visited by an Otter, and then a Mink who preceded to take the fish one at a time! As you say, not something an Otter would do, but more a characteristic of a Mink!?

[Francie 6,368]

 

 

 

 

 

Eddie, I know Mink are your specialty so maybe I'm not qualified to argue, but I do think that the Otter does have an impact on the Mink population in SOME areas.

I live in an area with one of the highest populations of Otters in Ireland, and they aint rare in Ireland, never were. I love tracking them.

The Otter is every bit the opportunist that the Mink is and when fishing is hard the Otter wont starve. Wildfowl, domestic poultry and rabbits are all fair game.

I know all the tiny streams that the Otters head up when the floods come and some of these streams are tiny and IMO the Otter either keeps the Mink away or predates on them.

IMO the only time the Otter suffers in hard weather is during the Spring when the cubs will drown in their holts.

Yea an Otter will take a Mink if the opportunity arises, but he's only king in the water, and so only has an advantage over the mink in open water!

 

Think about it! A Mink has any amount of nooks and cranny's to pop into, when out of the water! Places an Otter can't get to!

 

Also, are they really in competition for the same Pray! The way i see it, Otter mainly feed on fish, with the odd bird, rabbit, frog thrown in! Mink mainly pray on frogs, rats, rabbit, with the odd fish thrown in!

 

Otters hate Mink, that much is true, just like Mink hate Stoats! They see them as competition, and want to eliminate them!

 

Remember seeing a YouTube video a while back where it showed an Otter storing some fish it caught! A while later it showed a Mink, stealing each fish, one by one! That Mink wasn't too worried about the Other, but he was playing a dangerous game for sure!

Again Eddie, I wont pretend to know more than yourself (loved the photo of the carp in Dunnes Stores, the Polish will be so happy) but I find it hard to believe that an Otter would store anything.

They are a very wasteful predator, without a doubt.

Old Tarka does kill for fun, I've witnessed it. I've seen him do it and leave the evidence behind of kills he's made that anglers can only dream of making in a lifetime and I'm not talking about the man made fisheries that the British are now suffering from Otter predation. I'm talking about wild fisheries.

I'm not talking as an angler by the way, I love to see wildlife as much as I love to see a good hunt but the Otter IMO is a villain, LOL, but I mean that in a good way.

i have a deep love hate relationship with otter...

I have been on the end of the damage they have done to fish and game and its as bad as any fox damage ive ever seen and likely worse!

yet I found a cub the size of a ferret in a flood when I was keepering and kept it for 3 years, a little bitch called honey, house trained and would walk with me for miles...so I know full well what a enchanting little creature they are.

ive seen them on the lamp..i know their slides and runs...I know their holts and Ive seen them drop in when minking....and my only regret is I cant hunt this wonderful animal

Any pictures of the otter mate? What become of it?

[J Darcy 5,871]

 

I have hunted ,shot,snared,Lamped,dug,and trapped the immediate ground around this village for many years and have never seen signs of otter on it ....then the night of the worst floods in living memory while coming back from lamping I find on dead on the road at 2am is why I conclude the floods had caused this .....with the utter devastation and sheer magnitude of water I doubt there were many creatures worried about who's territory they were on that night but we're just concerned about getting away from it and surviving .

No this otter would not of been staying on this burn there would be no food source what so ever it is just drainage from arable land .

I can guarentee you that on the hill where there are hundreds of small burns running into the main river they travel up them at night hunting then will dop back down the main river early morning to holt up

Spot on that statement!

 

Around here they don't behave like that. Obviously different terrain means different behaviour. I've learnt a hell of a lot about them from the trail cams. I've seen an otter negotiate a little stream that runs through miles of built up industrial area, complete with old shopping trolleys and burnt out cars, travelling for three miles , at least, to get to a fishery. And no one ever seems to see them. They're an amazing, elusive mammal. I've taken a few photos of them, but they're very hard to get near enough for a decent photo...I would love to see any photos that anyones taken?