Muhammad Ali

[neems 2,406]

 

We cant stop human evolution can you see a 205 lb fighter ever winning a world heavyweight title again ? me neither......so where do fighters whos best natural fighting weight is 205 lb fit into professional boxing they are too big for cruiserweight but nowhere near big enough for heavyweight meaning we could easily miss the greatest fighter in the history of the sport because he didnt happen to be the right size......thats not what sport is about surely.

 

 

Im not a great fan of mma/ufc etc.....but i think their weight categories are far more realistic within todays times.

 

 

I think it would lead to better quality fights,but it wouldn't imo be a popular division.

 

A lot of the appeal of heavyweight is that they're the 'best' in the world,no-one can beat them regardless of size.

[DogFox123 1,379]

All this talk of Cus, you do realise he was dead before he even became Champion? He couldn't keep Tyson on the straight and narrow anyway, instead the team brushed the bad stuff under the carpet. Cus let Tyson get away with stuff because of the talent he had. Tyson was a great fighter no doubt, he took the division by storm and cleared it up. He beat fighters slightly past it though apart from maybe Tucker. Stylistically he would very dangerous for Ali but Ali had amazing will power and was has game has they come, I still think he would beat Tyson at his best.

[jukel123 8,084]

All this talk of Cus, you do realise he was dead before he even became Champion? He couldn't keep Tyson on the straight and narrow anyway, instead the team brushed the bad stuff under the carpet. Cus let Tyson get away with stuff because of the talent he had. Tyson was a great fighter no doubt, he took the division by storm and cleared it up. He beat fighters slightly past it though apart from maybe Tucker. Stylistically he would very dangerous for Ali but Ali had amazing will power and was has game has they come, I still think he would beat Tyson at his best.

I think illegal substances, psychological frailty ( he couldn't handle opponents he couldn't intimidate) and temptation ( 6 whores at once if I remember from a biography) had more to do with Tyson's demise than the death of Cus.

Edited December 7, 2015 by jukel123

[DogFox123 1,379]

 

All this talk of Cus, you do realise he was dead before he even became Champion? He couldn't keep Tyson on the straight and narrow anyway, instead the team brushed the bad stuff under the carpet. Cus let Tyson get away with stuff because of the talent he had. Tyson was a great fighter no doubt, he took the division by storm and cleared it up. He beat fighters slightly past it though apart from maybe Tucker. Stylistically he would very dangerous for Ali but Ali had amazing will power and was has game has they come, I still think he would beat Tyson at his best.

 

I think illegal substances, psychological frailty ( he couldn't handle opponents he couldn't intimidate) and temptation ( 6 whores at once if I remember from a biography) had more to do with Tyson's demise than the death of Cus.

I don't believe all the talk of intimidation tbh, they were proffesional fighters after all. He beat opponents with skill and power, trouble is though stylistically he had no plan B when a fighter took him into deep water. Saying that he took part in some of the most brutal bouts in the Heavyweight division and came out on top against the big hitting Ruddock. The fight where he had what appeared to be an off night he was knocked out after being thoroughly dominant. He's not the only champion to live a life of vice, no excuses IMO. Douglas beat him so convincingly I think he had his number plain and simple. Edited December 7, 2015 by DogFox123

[jukel123 8,084]

Fair point dog fox, but I have to disagree about the power of intimidation/psychology. I think it's a big factor even in world class boxing. When Ali and Tyson were at their peaks they'd won most of their fights before they entered the ring. Ali had no right to win against Foreman but his mind games, piss taking and goading won him the fight. Tyson's brooding Kingkong stare could scare most of us.

Remember at school some teachers could control a class by raising an eyebrow others were baited unmercifully, but all the teachers had exactly the same legal powers.

We are social animals and we all suck up to someone farther up in the hierarchy and demand respect from those 'beneath' us. We like to think we don't but we all do it to some degree.

[DogFox123 1,379]

Yes but it's what he could do in the ring that caused that fear. Trevor Berbick wasn't scared and fought a stupid fight by trying to out blast Tyson which was a big mistake. I'd say Ali had the right to beat Foreman, the man was an amazingly talented fighter, maybe the most gifted of all time.

[staffs riffraff 1,068]

Why now days is mostly white boxers at top of heavyweight division?is it because the Africa American are doing different sports ?or because they aren't in as much poverty as they used to be and got life a lot easier more opportunities now as whites are going the opposite past 20/30 years ie not going straight into a good job trade especially in America with affirmative action ? Or is that too simple a reason?

[desertbred 5,490]

I think most sporting Afro Americans go into American football, baseball, basket ball, and athletics, Plenty of money to be made without the inherent risks of the boxing ring. Those without the sporting skills go into professions from Lawyers to bank robbers and dealers even Presidents.Opportunities are far more widely open nowadays so the starving lad escaping poverty by putting the gloves on is not the only opportunity now to make good.

Edited December 9, 2015 by desertbred

[DogFox123 1,379]

Not just that don't forget the Soviet Union was run by communists and also Cuba too, they fought and stayed in the amateurs. I'm not saying they would have dominated the sport but the competition would have been greater for the Americans in their years of domination.

[gnasher16 30,121]

 

Wondering what might have been is hardly making excuses. Why would I make excuses for Mike Tyson? you could probably break down some comment I made and interpret it as an excuse but that has never been my intention. I do not care for Mike Tyson, I see him as a low life psychopath and without boxing and early guidance, particularly from cus damato it is safe to say he would have been a scourge on whatever society he dwelled in. To say he is a failure is ridiculous as he was the champion of the world, the youngest ever to boot and undisputed. He met kings,presidents, prime ministers, dictators,etc who all sang his praises and made more money and bedded finer women than nearly anybody that ever existed.if that is failure I would like to experience it. And to say we would all look a million dollars fighting the people mike Tyson fought is about as ridiculous a comment as I have ever heard... I never said he is the greatest I said imo the best mike Tyson would beat the best anybody else. I emphasise IN MY OPINION. Joshua is very impressive but mike Tyson at the same stage in his career would have destroyed him in the first or maybe second round IMO.

 

Yes but what reason is there to think the best Mike Tyson would beat anybody else ? because the best Mike Tyson looked great bashing up a bunch of journeymen ?.......i didnt say he was a failure as a human being thats not for me to decide but as a boxing fan i watched him fail against the very highest level of opponents of his era.......should i ignore that just because its Mike Tyson ?......it is what it is......who cares about his upbringing anymore than who cares about Buster Douglas upbringing he was a boxer and should ultimately be judged as such......." what might have been " could apply to any sportsman in any sport through history just because Tysons life has been so well documented doesnt make it any more relevant than anybody else.

Edited December 9, 2015 by gnasher16

[gnasher16 30,121]

Fair point dog fox, but I have to disagree about the power of intimidation/psychology. I think it's a big factor even in world class boxing. When Ali and Tyson were at their peaks they'd won most of their fights before they entered the ring. Ali had no right to win against Foreman but his mind games, piss taking and goading won him the fight. Tyson's brooding Kingkong stare could scare most of us.

Remember at school some teachers could control a class by raising an eyebrow others were baited unmercifully, but all the teachers had exactly the same legal powers.

We are social animals and we all suck up to someone farther up in the hierarchy and demand respect from those 'beneath' us. We like to think we don't but we all do it to some degree.

Its a subject i find interesting and although Jukel makes some interesting points re school teachers etc i have to say i agree with Dogfox.....very few elite athletes are going to be put out of their stride to any significant degree by being looked at !....." the staredown " was once an essential part of a fight be it at the weigh in or the referees instructions....it was seen as a sign of weakness if a fighter didnt hold the stare of an opponent whereas today it is not so important as its generally accepted that theres nothing to really be gained from it if you are not of a frail mindset.....even though the media/fans lap it up !........all this " he was intimidated before a punch was thrown " is nonsense.......the perfect example for me was the Tyson/Spinks fight ......people have said Spinks was intimidated before a punch was thrown he wasnt he just froze on the big occassion it happens,sometimes a fighter can fear letting himself/family/friends down its not fear of an opponent its fear of failure and thats what i believe happened to Spinks that night......its just a nice romantic comic book story if we believe the baddest man on the planet has everyone quaking in their boots but in reality men who step through the ropes at any level of boxing rarely suffer from being physically afraid of other men.

Edited December 9, 2015 by gnasher16

[bird 9,916]

 

Fair point dog fox, but I have to disagree about the power of intimidation/psychology. I think it's a big factor even in world class boxing. When Ali and Tyson were at their peaks they'd won most of their fights before they entered the ring. Ali had no right to win against Foreman but his mind games, piss taking and goading won him the fight. Tyson's brooding Kingkong stare could scare most of us.

Remember at school some teachers could control a class by raising an eyebrow others were baited unmercifully, but all the teachers had exactly the same legal powers.

We are social animals and we all suck up to someone farther up in the hierarchy and demand respect from those 'beneath' us. We like to think we don't but we all do it to some degree.

Its a subject i find interesting and although Jukel makes some interesting points re school teachers etc i have to say i agree with Dogfox.....very few elite athletes are going to be put out of their stride to any significant degree by being looked at !....." the staredown " was once an essential part of a fight be it at the weigh in or the referees instructions....it was seen as a sign of weakness if a fighter didnt hold the stare of an opponent whereas today it is not so important as its generally accepted that theres nothing to really be gained from it if you are not of a frail mindset.....even though the media/fans lap it up !........all this " he was intimidated before a punch was thrown " is nonsense.......the perfect example for me was the Tyson/Spinks fight ......people have said Spinks was intimidated before a punch was thrown he wasnt he just froze on the big occassion it happens,sometimes a fighter can fear letting himself/family/friends down its not fear of an opponent its fear of failure and thats what i believe happened to Spinks that night......its just a nice romantic comic book story if we believe the baddest man on the planet has everyone quaking in their boots but in reality men who step through the ropes at any level of boxing rarely suffer from being physically afraid of other men.

 

I once had to karate demo in front about 400 people , I was in a 4 man attack , the last one in the attack. I came the wrong side to him, so he had punch me full on to the chest, and kick to side of me head going back he the instructor . he lifted off the ground with the punch, the crowd thought it was great , I was 1/2 dazed . we practiced all week, then on the day I fooked it up funny how your mind works with few people watching , but it turned out good for the attack , but left be with good old bruise

[Silversnake 1,099]

 

 

Wondering what might have been is hardly making excuses. Why would I make excuses for Mike Tyson? you could probably break down some comment I made and interpret it as an excuse but that has never been my intention. I do not care for Mike Tyson, I see him as a low life psychopath and without boxing and early guidance, particularly from cus damato it is safe to say he would have been a scourge on whatever society he dwelled in. To say he is a failure is ridiculous as he was the champion of the world, the youngest ever to boot and undisputed. He met kings,presidents, prime ministers, dictators,etc who all sang his praises and made more money and bedded finer women than nearly anybody that ever existed.if that is failure I would like to experience it. And to say we would all look a million dollars fighting the people mike Tyson fought is about as ridiculous a comment as I have ever heard... I never said he is the greatest I said imo the best mike Tyson would beat the best anybody else. I emphasise IN MY OPINION. Joshua is very impressive but mike Tyson at the same stage in his career would have destroyed him in the first or maybe second round IMO.

 

Yes but what reason is there to think the best Mike Tyson would beat anybody else ? because the best Mike Tyson looked great bashing up a bunch of journeymen ?.......i didnt say he was a failure as a human being thats not for me to decide but as a boxing fan i watched him fail against the very highest level of opponents of his era.......should i ignore that just because its Mike Tyson ?......it is what it is......who cares about his upbringing anymore than who cares about Buster Douglas upbringing he was a boxer and should ultimately be judged as such......." what might have been " could apply to any sportsman in any sport through history just because Tysons life has been so well documented doesnt make it any more relevant than anybody else.

My reasoning is the way he moved, the power and speed he generated, how hard he was to hit and how his defence and attack so seamlessly transitioned. He also had a very good chin. What might have been is not the same for every athlete imo as some are more gifted than others both physically and mentally, so I think there is different levels of relevance for different athletes. Cus damato created a near perfect style for Tyson's physical gifts and seemed to control his mental shortcomings better than anybody else ever could. Cus died before Tyson was champion but he had already done enough for him to have a great career and imo created the most devastating boxer to set foot in the ring at his peak IMO.

[gnasher16 30,121]

 

My reasoning is the way he moved, the power and speed he generated, how hard he was to hit and how his defence and attack so seamlessly transitioned.

Yet he couldnt do it when he stepped up in class...........its ok its ok i know about all the excuses

 

This will continually go round in boring circles mate.......Tyson won fights and he lost fights.......it happens.

[Silversnake 1,099]

 

 

My reasoning is the way he moved, the power and speed he generated, how hard he was to hit and how his defence and attack so seamlessly transitioned.

Yet he couldnt do it when he stepped up in class...........its ok its ok i know about all the excuses

 

This will continually go round in boring circles mate.......Tyson won fights and he lost fights.......it happens.

You are certainly right about boring circles and you are entitled to your opinion and so am I...