walshie 2,804 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 Don't forget there are already a lot of gun owners in the UK. They are purely tools. same as an axe. I don't see how gun ownership makes you more or less likely to use that tool improperly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,813 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I think, as is usually the case, this discussion is at risk of becoming a bit sensationalist. "The UK will probably turn into Somalia", "Children having unrestricted access to guns" etc. What exactly are we arguing for or against? Broadly more liberal laws on the use of firearms for self defence........ That leaves an awful lot of room for negotiation and compromise. Also, why is safety always considered the be all and end all? Like everything we have in our society now is because it's the most safe choice! LOL. In certain situations firearms will make society less safe, in others I'm in no doubt they make society more safe. Above all they return a very significant freedom! Shall we discuss the implications of valuing safety over freedom for a minute....... is allowing people the freedom to raise their own children the safest way children can be raised? Is allowing the private ownership of animals (dogs, horses, snakes etc) safe for society? Is allowing people the freedom to drive their own transport the safest option for society? Is allowing people to own ponds, knives, hammers etc the safest thing for society? I can give workable, safer alternatives for all of these. Very few want total 100% freedom or safety, most things are a compromise, so wanting more liberal gun laws, even the likes of open carrying assault rifles is not setting any moral precedence. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socks 32,253 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 Yer all teenage children in the U.K should have free access to fire arms. . . . . it will defiantly make society much much much safer. . . . . . . Who said kids should be allowed to run around with guns ?????? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,470 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 For a 'crazy' it probably doesn't make that much difference,mass stabbings have happened in places guns are almost illegal. I could just pick up a bit of speed driving towards whatever target I chose and close my eyes,claim I blacked out and probably do less than 4 years if i got sent down at all. But we,re not talking about " crazies " we,re talking about normal everyday folk. You have heard of " road rage " ? its the split second reaction folk have while at a steering wheel......and you want those type of split second reactions from someone with a gun in their pocket ?......no thanks. Gnash are you saying that if people own a gun then lost their temper they would run around killing people ........ No thats just being silly........but as im sure you are aware theres plenty of people out there who carry knives with no intention of using them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socks 32,253 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I carry a knife every day and wouldn't even think of drawing it in an argument ... I just don't see the logic that because somebody carries a gun he will use it in anger ...... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,470 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I think, as is usually the case, this discussion is at risk of becoming a bit sensationalist. "The UK will probably turn into Somalia", "Children having unrestricted access to guns" etc. What exactly are we arguing for or against? Broadly more liberal laws on the use of firearms for self defence........ That leaves an awful lot of room for negotiation and compromise. Also, why is safety always considered the be all and end all? Like everything we have in our society now is because it's the most safe choice! LOL. In certain situations firearms will make society less safe, in others I'm in no doubt they make society more safe. Above all they return a very significant freedom! Shall we discuss the implications of valuing safety over freedom for a minute....... is allowing people the freedom to raise their own children the safest way children can be raised? Is allowing the private ownership of animals (dogs, horses, snakes etc) safe for society? Is allowing people the freedom to drive their own transport the safest option for society? Is allowing people to own ponds, knives, hammers etc the safest thing for society? I can give workable, safer alternatives for all of these. Very few want total 100% freedom or safety, most things are a compromise, so wanting more liberal gun laws, even the likes of open carrying assault rifles is not setting any moral precedence. Its nothing to do with sensationalist i only brought the extreme of Somalia into it because you brought the other extreme of Switzerland into it..... Bornhunter do you think that people should be able to walk the streets armed with a gun ?......as a responsible citizen should i be able to slip down the Rose & Crown tonight with a gun ?.........im not being flippant im just asking the question. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,470 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I carry a knife every day and wouldn't even think of drawing it in an argument ... I just don't see the logic that because somebody carries a gun he will use it in anger ...... I know you live in isolation and dont get to see much of real life but you are a sensible responsible chap......apparently. Im not......and i dont live in seclusion.....so should i carry a knife ?...... its probably safer for all concerned if i dont 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socks 32,253 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I carry a knife every day and wouldn't even think of drawing it in an argument ... I just don't see the logic that because somebody carries a gun he will use it in anger ...... I know you live in isolation and dont get to see much of real life but you are a sensible responsible chap......apparently. Im not......and i dont live in seclusion.....so should i carry a knife ?...... its probably safer for all concerned if i dont Gnash I doubt if you would end up stabbing somebody to death if you happened to have a knife in your pocket and you got into an argument ..... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,470 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) alcohol is part and parcel of society and families in france spain Italy etc and you don't see kids rolling around the floor drunk in these countries .... its because its part of their culture and grow up with it ...its normal ....... The French/Italian attitude to alcohol is very different to ours......they use alcohol at social congregations/meals etc but have no lager lout or public nuisance and general " coolness " about being paraletic drunk like we do....they dont really understand our drinking culture. Probably similar to how us carrying guns sounds crazy but in East LA its perfectly normal. Edited November 12, 2015 by gnasher16 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
neems 2,406 Posted November 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 For a 'crazy' it probably doesn't make that much difference,mass stabbings have happened in places guns are almost illegal. I could just pick up a bit of speed driving towards whatever target I chose and close my eyes,claim I blacked out and probably do less than 4 years if i got sent down at all. But we,re not talking about " crazies " we,re talking about normal everyday folk. You have heard of " road rage " ? its the split second reaction folk have while at a steering wheel......and you want those type of split second reactions from someone with a gun in their pocket ?......no thanks. I don't know of anyone who would run over a bad driver as they left their car,what's the difference between that and shooting them? If someone is unstable enough that they would consider killing someone who's annoyed them on the road,I don't think they'd be hard to weed out. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,813 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I think, as is usually the case, this discussion is at risk of becoming a bit sensationalist. "The UK will probably turn into Somalia", "Children having unrestricted access to guns" etc. What exactly are we arguing for or against? Broadly more liberal laws on the use of firearms for self defence........ That leaves an awful lot of room for negotiation and compromise. Also, why is safety always considered the be all and end all? Like everything we have in our society now is because it's the most safe choice! LOL. In certain situations firearms will make society less safe, in others I'm in no doubt they make society more safe. Above all they return a very significant freedom! Shall we discuss the implications of valuing safety over freedom for a minute....... is allowing people the freedom to raise their own children the safest way children can be raised? Is allowing the private ownership of animals (dogs, horses, snakes etc) safe for society? Is allowing people the freedom to drive their own transport the safest option for society? Is allowing people to own ponds, knives, hammers etc the safest thing for society? I can give workable, safer alternatives for all of these. Very few want total 100% freedom or safety, most things are a compromise, so wanting more liberal gun laws, even the likes of open carrying assault rifles is not setting any moral precedence. Its nothing to do with sensationalist i only brought the extreme of Somalia into it because you brought the other extreme of Switzerland into it..... Bornhunter do you think that people should be able to walk the streets armed with a gun ?......as a responsible citizen should i be able to slip down the Rose & Crown tonight with a gun ?.........im not being flippant im just asking the question. Well it was sensationalist, I never said we would turn into anything, just that there are countries that have liberal gun laws that are not south America or Somalia, which is as factual a statement as I can manage to think of. Saying "we'll probably turn into Somalia" is sensationalism imo, it's an opinion not a fact that is intended to sound outrageous by oversimplifying the situation being debated but whatever we're getting drawn away from the real debate. I'd hope I've made it clear that the answer to that question isn't simple, but if you want a simple answer then I'll say yes. I would have no problem living in a country where responsible citizens can concealed carry. That doesn't mean I think every country that has liberal gun laws is f***ing paradise though. LOL Also, I'm under no illusion that my views are in the majority, your views by far outnumber mine and so this is all a bit mute.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,470 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I carry a knife every day and wouldn't even think of drawing it in an argument ... I just don't see the logic that because somebody carries a gun he will use it in anger ......I know you live in isolation and dont get to see much of real life but you are a sensible responsible chap......apparently. Im not......and i dont live in seclusion.....so should i carry a knife ?...... its probably safer for all concerned if i dont Gnash I doubt if you would end up stabbing somebody to death if you happened to have a knife in your pocket and you got into an argument ..... No perhaps just a punctured lung or stab to the thigh would suffice.......cant be as a bad as a smack in the earhole eh. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socks 32,253 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 alcohol is part and parcel of society and families in france spain Italy etc and you don't see kids rolling around the floor drunk in these countries .... its because its part of their culture and grow up with it ...its normal ....... The French/Italian attitude to alcohol is very different to ours......they use alcohol at social congregations/meals etc but have no lager lout or public nuisance and general " coolness " about being paraletic drunk like we do....they dont really understand our drinking culture. Probably similar to how us carrying guns sounds crazy but in East LA its perfectly normal. That's my whole point mate ... If it was the norm to carry a gun in this country then in a few generations it wouldn't be a big deal and would be seen as the norm ....... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,470 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 (edited) I don't know of anyone who would run over a bad driver as they left their car,what's the difference between that and shooting them? If someone is unstable enough that they would consider killing someone who's annoyed them on the road,I don't think they'd be hard to weed out. So what is the reason for arming folk with guns in the first place then ? so that they dont have to run them over or stab them ?.....or just because it works better during the old threat display Edited November 12, 2015 by gnasher16 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,470 Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 Well it was sensationalist, I never said we would turn into anything, just that there are countries that have liberal gun laws that are not south America or Somalia, which is as factual a statement as I can manage to think of. Saying "we'll probably turn into Somalia" is sensationalism imo, it's an opinion not a fact that is intended to sound outrageous by oversimplifying the situation being debated but whatever we're getting drawn away from the real debate. I'd hope I've made it clear that the answer to that question isn't simple, but if you want a simple answer then I'll say yes. I would have no problem living in a country where responsible citizens can concealed carry. That doesn't mean I think every country that has liberal gun laws is f***ing paradise though. LOL Also, I'm under no illusion that my views are in the majority, your views by far outnumber mine and so this is all a bit mute.... Ok ok i was thinking that a good intelligent chap like yourself would realise i was using it to emphasise point...ok forget Somalia bad example. Im not interested in whos right or wrong or what the majority thoughts are im just interested in your thoughts as you make some interesting points i havent really thought about before......cant say i agree with the idea of concealed weapons being carried around our capital cities simply because i know how quickly so called responsible people become irresponsible people......but its all food for thought cheers 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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