From Show To Go

[LEATHERABRAHAM 3]

I live in a region where large terriers are rarely employed for hunting/conservation and there is an obvious lack of local talent when it comes to proven working stock. Providing proper dogs is one of my long term goals for society because our survival may depend on them again and I have biases... I have noticed that English Bull Terriers, a breed developed for the show ring, have consistently been used as successful catch dogs in various contexts.

 

Living in Canada, could local "show" wheatens displaying desirable character/physical traits be used for work? Given that I can find dogs with desirable physical characteristics, how many generations does it take to strengthen key behaviour traits?

[dillydog 8,463]

It's hard enough keeping dogs from working lines that are well proven in the field breeding true, I wouldn't want to waste my life chasing show shit but good luck all the same.

[stevemac 434]

ya good luck , look there is always a chance of jaging a worker from show lines but honestly if you like a particular type of dog its easier to go for that and ad some blood from a complete nutter to wake up the working ability. then breed back to your chosen type.

[LEATHERABRAHAM 3]

That is the direction I am leaning stevemac. I am optimistic this will create more instances of dogs with hybrid vigour due to the wider gene pool of non-proven dogs....

 

and I appreciate your honesty dillydog. Here's some wasted time:

 

In Australia the feral pig was declared an animal under section 69 of the Rural Lands Protection Act 1985. They had no traditional proven pig hunting dogs (and pitbulls were illegal). Kennel Club dogs such as Boxers, Bullmastiffs, English Mastiff, English Bull Terrier, ..etc., were all implemented as is and to create modern pig dog breeds.

 

At this point I would say their pig dogs are on par with those of the USA who have maintained a healthy stock of proven dogs. I am reasonably nearby good dogs but they are not wheaten terriers which I prefer. Would kc wheatens be worse off than those breeds (not all wheatens in North American are show dogs)?

 

If anyone has any contacts, please personal message me. I am willing to go international for a working wheaten and will love it if people in north american have anything.

[Zilverhaze 1,627]

Hello pal dosent hybrid vigour only work 1 time so you will only get it on the first generation of offspring and not again ? if you want a long term plan and are going to be putting a big part of your life into it put some real effort into it and don't cut corners with kc blood .. go and source the 2 longest working lines of your chosen breed and put them togeather that way your long term plan of providing proper dogs as you say will have the best chance of actually working if you start of half arsed with non working blood it will always be in the back of your mind and if you fail the kc blood will be to blame..at least if you go all out and do it the correct way and you fail you tried your hardest and that's all yourself or the people you will be providing dogs for can ask of you

 

I don't have no massive breeding experience but I no if you put shit in its deffinatley coming back out further down the line if i wanted what you want I whuld get friendly with the Irish lads

 

Have you not thought of a diffrent breed somthing what's easier to get out of working stock for a catch dog I whuldent use weatons for a number of reasons I whuld be leaning more towards a small type lurcher x bull seen these catch and hold boar with ease

 

Good luck with what ever path you walk down

[BGD 6,436]

Unlike the EBT the show wheaton was specifically bred to take the fire out of them, I wouldn't fancy your chances of making a capable worker out of one you could be better off with a kerry blue if you really want to mess about with big terriers from show lines, they seem to still have a bit of fire in their belly.

 

Honestly though if you're going to spend years (probably decades honestly) of your life trying to find a prospect out of show lines why not just import a real working type wheaton from Ireland?

[Corkman 944]

I live in a region where large terriers are rarely employed for hunting/conservation and there is an obvious lack of local talent when it comes to proven working stock. Providing proper dogs is one of my long term goals for society because our survival may depend on them again and I have biases... I have noticed that English Bull Terriers, a breed developed for the show ring, have consistently been used as successful catch dogs in various contexts.

 

Living in Canada, could local "show" wheatens displaying desirable character/physical traits be used for work? Given that I can find dogs with desirable physical characteristics, how many generations does it take to strengthen key behaviour traits?

 

** Providing proper dogs is one of my long term goals for society because our survival may depend on them again and I have biases... **

 

Are you expecting the holocaust? Fairly gloomy outlook in life. Living in BC I would have thought would be a good enough reason to make anyone feel content. :-)

 

The K.C. in it various guises (AKC,UKC, IKC, etc) has done a good job of ruining the wheaten terrier. The blond weak show dog of today is a distant relation to the old working wheaten. Trying to import a dog from old working lines would put you from 0 to 150 miles per hour fairly quickly....... a lively dog to handle for a novice.......A grand dog though. Agree about the Ozzies breeding all sorts of pig dogs. They even breed Irish wolfhound into their dogs which I thought was insane until I saw a crossbreed work. But better bred dogs would still do a better job than some of the yokes I saw. Then again it is always down to the men breeding the dogs and what they put into them. If you cannot get a working bred wheaten (from Ireland) I would tend to lean towards an Irish bred KC version than any KC bred dog in the UK or US or Canada. At worst they would be "somewhat" closer to the dogs in the past if all the gizz isn't bred out of them?

[neil cooney 10,416]

From what I've seen on the net, telly etc. and read in books some pig hunters around the world don't want too game a dog such as a pure pit bull as they don't last too long, hence the reason some hunters have great success with curs which will aim for their hold instead of holding the first thing they see.

Didn't Reg Carr once say that the best pig dog he ever had was a boxer X labrador. This in theory should make no sense whatsoever if gameness is the name of the game.

SO, if a dog for pigs needs a bit of gameness combined with some self preservation then the proper, well bred working wheaten is NOT ideal IMO.

If pit bulls get busted or killed quickly on pigs then so will a proper wheaten.

I hate having to say "proper" regarding working dogs but the wheaten is a thousand miles removed from the K.C. Soft Coated Wheaten and if you think the the K.C. variety would suit your needs then save yourself the time and money and just get a standard poodle. Same thing, different name IMO.

 

I'm also well aware that many pig hunters have success with pit bulls as catch dogs but I scratch my head in disbelief when I see 3 or 4 pitbulls travelling together on the back of the Ute.

Fair play to these boys but I'd be a bundle of nerves with breaking sticks at the ready. LOL.

[neil cooney 10,416]

I'll presume he looked a hard b*****d against any street curs etc. that he met.

Did he ever meet anything like a wild pig ?

LOL, I know what you're saying. We all have those legendary local hard dogs .

[LEATHERABRAHAM 3]

I really appreciate all the feedback. I first came across this site around a year ago and found the write ups about wheatens very interesting. As a child I thought KC breed books were awesome..... I feel like I was brainwashed about the true wheatens' history and current account of their personality. I wanted to learn as much before posting as not to draw upon old threads. My family grew up with 2 wheatens. Our first was a fiery female and the second is a soft male who barks. We initial got a wheaten because they are described as happy-go-lucky, medium sized, non-shedding, and a terrier. I obviously cannot post from experience of working wheaten gameness, but our first female was reckless, an opportunist, athletic, and a tank (18" 43lbs). She lived to to around 1 and 3/4 years (hit by a car) and this was around 2001-3 period. Deer, rabbit, cat, and racoon were are very prominent in my childhood neighbourhood so she was overwhelmed with prey and would escape for hours on end. As a young adult I feel so much regret for what I believe was a lost opportunity regardless if she was anything or not. I currently cannot track her lineage as we received no papers.

 

I don't want a hog catching dog as literally no one sees them in BC and I just thought it might be a good example for produced performance dogs... Clearly, wheatens are for a different purpose. A member here referenced wheatens being popular for foxes in the 70s.... I also found the article on fox hunting with staffordshire bull terriers (a breed I would have access to) very interesting. Maybe go for bull? Find some proper wheaten blood overseas and throw it back? a nonshedding coat would be nice. How is the working wheaten coat pure and how does it generally turn out after Aa 50/50 cross?

 

Corkman, there is no holocaust that I am worried about but there is currently wolf cull that may allow for more foxes

Edited November 11, 2015 by LEATHERABRAHAM

[LEATHERABRAHAM 3]

Hello pal dosent hybrid vigour only work 1 time so you will only get it on the first generation of offspring and not again ?

In referencing "The New Terrier Handbook" by Kerry Kern page 40-41, I agree with you. Sorry I have not yet mastered online sarcasm.

 

[LEATHERABRAHAM 3]

 

I live in a region where large terriers are rarely employed for hunting/conservation and there is an obvious lack of local talent when it comes to proven working stock. Providing proper dogs is one of my long term goals for society because our survival may depend on them again and I have biases... I have noticed that English Bull Terriers, a breed developed for the show ring, have consistently been used as successful catch dogs in various contexts.

 

Living in Canada, could local "show" wheatens displaying desirable character/physical traits be used for work? Given that I can find dogs with desirable physical characteristics, how many generations does it take to strengthen key behaviour traits?

 

** Providing proper dogs is one of my long term goals for society because our survival may depend on them again and I have biases... **

 

Are you expecting the holocaust? Fairly gloomy outlook in life. Living in BC I would have thought would be a good enough reason to make anyone feel content. :-)

 

The K.C. in it various guises (AKC,UKC, IKC, etc) has done a good job of ruining the wheaten terrier. The blond weak show dog of today is a distant relation to the old working wheaten. Trying to import a dog from old working lines would put you from 0 to 150 miles per hour fairly quickly....... a lively dog to handle for a novice.......A grand dog though. Agree about the Ozzies breeding all sorts of pig dogs. They even breed Irish wolfhound into their dogs which I thought was insane until I saw a crossbreed work. But better bred dogs would still do a better job than some of the yokes I saw. Then again it is always down to the men breeding the dogs and what they put into them. If you cannot get a working bred wheaten (from Ireland) I would tend to lean towards an Irish bred KC version than any KC bred dog in the UK or US or Canada. At worst they would be "somewhat" closer to the dogs in the past if all the gizz isn't bred out of them?

 

This is very informative. I still have many steps to take before owning my own wheaten. This is something I will be patient for as it is a life long goal and I definitely intend to travel to the homeland to experience as much as I can before attempting to acquire.

 

If you see a wheaten before it is worked, can you make an educated guess at what its capabilities might be?

 

[stevemac 434]

I might have the cat by the tail but I thought you only used the Aussie pigdog as an example of re constituted working dogs from pig dogs from show not that you want to use wheatens as pigdogs. However show dogs of 40 and 50 yrs ago were not as far from there working roots as they are today. Ive never been one to back away from a dog breeding challenge, wish you all best in your best with your efforts living in Canada I would have thought there would be many dogs avalible to you over there Mountian curs being dogs breed over centurys for the game on that continent.

[Corkman 944]

Corkman, there is no holocaust that I am worried about but there is currently wolf cull that may allow for more foxes

 

Edited by LEATHERABRAHAM, Today, 04:12 AM.

Got yah. Now that is an interesting prospect.

It would be nice if someone posts you over a pup as it could be like reading Jock of the Bushveld on here in a couple of years - a sanitised version.

Best of luck with your search and take everything on here with a pinch of salt. Some peoples idea of the meaning of a good dog is a world apart from others.

[BGD 6,436]

If you're just after a general vermin bashing larger terrier with a good coat have you considered an airedale? Some good solid working lines available in North America