Any Advice On Stopping

[kanigra 110]

Got a chocolate cocker bitch just 12 mths. Bought her at 9 mths old she has come on well considering she was a pet & new nothing. She comes to the whistle will retrieve from the water to hand. She will quarter and turn to the whistle,blind retrieve,I can send her to 3 different types of dummy,her response to hand signals is good,she is sound to fireworks and gunshot.But she will not stop & hup at distance even a small distance she returns then hups. She very bright,strong willed & super hyped. Have tryed all the training methods I no to correct it but she still won't do it. My springer would drop at a very early age at distance no problem & my springer before that. So I'm a bit stumped any good advice would be helpful as I want to start her on a small shoot beating before getting her picking up hopefully at the end of the season if all goes well. Never had a problem teaching dogs to drop to the stop whistle before. She looks confused when I do it ,it's not cos she's hot headed & runs on its like she just doesn't understand what I'm asking of her. Any good tips would be great. Thanks

[Casso 1,261]

I would box train the down starting at home through feeding,

 

The way it should go is, get her up on a something with a flat top a box is ideal but any secure surface is fine, it has to be height enough that it's a waste of energy getting off for her and she remains on it to eat , hand feeding only

 

She will probably sit at first but direct the food down in front of her nose down between her chest so she has to sit back on her haunches to eat , a bit at a time only feeding in the down,

 

She has to be doing the action every time before introducing a command or whistle, the action first then the command that's important at the early stage,

The reason way this action is so difficult to master for a dog in the field is because just about every command has an action attached to it, the down is a non action command , the dog gets used to motion on command , motion is emotion to a dog

 

, it's a totally different reference point in the dogs body, the dog must reference its hind quarters in a different manner instead of propulsion we want inaction,

Eventually moving on to dummy in time , the action must have a reward ,

I teach the in action of the down as pups it's akin to "the less I do the more I get " the dog here will use the down to show he wants to get out and when hungry, I can usually tell the difference ?, instead of jumping around and annoying people he just downs

 

One further point , a lot of lads teach the down as a dominance command , meaning down means down because I say but the box trained down is an internal action not an external one, the dog downs because the command has potential (food or dummy ) attached to it,

Best of luck with the pup however you approach it

[stroller 341]

I always think Casso responses are a bit long winded and very wordy but his post is spot on as how to get a good down. She will get it mate just plug on

[skycat 6,173]

When I teach a lurcher to stop at a distance I start with the dog very close to me. Once the dog is reliably sitting on verbal command 'sit', I add the whistle command at the same time as a hand signal: hand held out, palm facing dog in a pushing away action. Once the dog is sitting purely to the whistle and hand signal, which I always reward with food in the training stages, I wait until the dog has pottered away down the garden, then use my voice to call its name and attract its attention. Then I give the stop command, using hand and whistle. I have always found that the 'pushing away' hand action is very effective in teaching the dog that it must stay at that spot. This may be only a few yards away to begin with, but that doesn't matter, for it is the action of stopping and sitting anywhere not right in front of you, at your feet, that the dog learns to understand. Gradually you can increase the distance to however far you want, but the dog must first understand that stop means stop wherever it is. Hope that makes sense.

[jessdale 416]

If the hand signal reassures you use it but get rid of it as soon as you can. The dog may be sitting to the hand signal and not the whistle. The dog may not be able to see you when you require it to stop sometimes. I have seen it alot when the dogs sits to hand and whistle yet ignore the whistle on its own. Walk the dog at heel, off the lead, then blow the stop whistle whilst still walking. It is amazing how many dogs continue to walk alongside totally ignoring the whistle.

[Casso 1,261]

With the greatest respect penny I wouldn't be mad about the idea of calling his name then stopping a young dog in his tracks,

 

I have seen confusion creeping into many pups recall at that early stage if their not 100%sure what the owner wants , keeping the recal command if it is the pups name for only positive interactions leaves no gray areas in his learning

Edited October 27, 2015 by Casso

[Lab 10,979]

Is there any reason you want it to sit at distance from you? Really what is the benefit!

As long as when you whistle the dog stops and turns its attention to you and is looking/listening for its next command the dog will do great.

[kanigra 110]

Thanks guys. Especially casso. Did it today & it took 20 mins for her to get. She huped &

 

stayed at distance on a table to the hup. Didn't need to go all the way just stop & hup so used this to my advantage. While it was going well off the table in the garden I took her to some rough ground where I walk her & she did the command 4 times. Brilliant. Was well happy & she looked at me like to say ' well I get that why didn't you do that in the first place'. Will train all further dogs this way as it works well & they really get it. Thanks once again.

[Casso 1,261]

Shit , that was quick , I would keep up the foundation work with the pup to reinforce it, the more solid the foundation is the more ingrained the action will be with distractions

[Lab 10,979]

Shit , that was quick , I would keep up the foundation work with the pup to reinforce it, the more solid the foundation is the more ingrained the action will be with distractions

Really enjoy your posts mate.......you obviously know what your talking about.

So what's do you think the benefits are of getting a dog to sit when it's at distance in the field??

When working my older dog he has never sat but he stops immediately when I whistle and he is looking at me for his next command. I think this is enough? Do you??

[kanigra 110]

Ive found previously that when a dog stops at distance standing it's easier for them to creep forward. When in the hup or down its obviously harder for them to do this. Therefore they drop to shot as the saying goes. I've never taught mine to down to the stop whistle I feel a hup is good enough but if they go into the down that's fine as long as they stay in that position & don't move until told. That's my reasoning. But each to there own. Casso knows his stuff as I said I'm not a novice at gundog training. & never heard of this technique & it's amazing how quick she got it after weeks of my normal way just not working. Like I said even tho not a novice no one knows it all & needs advice from time to time. Thanks casso. If I ever get stumped again will it be ok to message you mate? Thanks

[kanigra 110]

Ive found previously that when a dog stops at distance standing it's easier for them to creep forward. When in the hup or down its obviously harder for them to do this. Therefore they drop to shot as the saying goes. I've never taught mine to down to the stop whistle I feel a hup is good enough but if they go into the down that's fine as long as they stay in that position & don't move until told. That's my reasoning. But each to there own. Casso knows his stuff as I said I'm not a novice at gundog training. & never heard of this technique & it's amazing how quick she got it after weeks of my normal way just not working. Like I said even tho not a novice no one knows it all & needs advice from time to time. Thanks casso. If I ever get stumped again will it be ok to message you mate? Thanks

[Casso 1,261]

Whatever works for ya lab is how it should be, its all about both parties understanding what's required, the dog can then be corrected for making a wrong move or defiance, it's when the dog doesn't grasp what's required and starts tuning you out is a bigger problem because the "tuning out" can then be a learned behaviour when introduced to any new activity

 

The "tuning out "is actually fear creeping in, it's an instinctive behaviour if I've learned anything about dogs, is fear is completely untrainable, it's a lot easier to get the best out of a dog if his temperament is to the fore,

Best of luck with the mutt this year ,

[Lab 10,979]

Whatever works for ya lab is how it should be, its all about both parties understanding what's required, the dog can then be corrected for making a wrong move or defiance, it's when the dog doesn't grasp what's required and starts tuning you out is a bigger problem because the "tuning out" can then be a learned behaviour when introduced to any new activity

 

The "tuning out "is actually fear creeping in, it's an instinctive behaviour if I've learned anything about dogs, is fear is completely untrainable, it's a lot easier to get the best out of a dog if his temperament is to the fore,

Best of luck with the mutt this year ,

Ok yes I see what your saying......not something I have done in the passed but it's not to say I won't in the future.

I think sometimes we strive to have the 'robotic' gundog and we loose sight of what the dog is capable in itself.

Many times I've seen handlers ( some who trial there dogs) use the whistle too much and end up sending the dog off in the wrong direction. I think the most important thing is to be able to red your dog and trust it when picking live game.

Cheers

[kanigra 110]

I agree lab. It's what works for the individual & what we want from our dogs. But I no what you mean bout making dogs robotic. I try to let the dog find its own way unless I can see her going wrong & that's where training pays dividends.