Jack Russell Kc Registered

[Mudcat 95]

I know of one good Border here in the states. She is a fantastic worker above and below ground. Always up for the challenge. It is a shame he cannot find a good working male over here to breed her to.

 

Mudcat

[Corkman 944]

Hi Corkman.

 

I think you are a little confused.

 

"Strange then how the K.C. promotes breeding of multiple deformed breeds of dog? Through fashionable trends and inbred breeding policies allowed for decades by the K.C. (all litters are registered so they know what is going on)."

No they dont at all. And, Im not sure you are aware that all the breeds that were considered "exaggerated" are subject to veterinary checks at every champ show (BOB winner) and if deemed unfit in any way are not allowed to compete and their award taken away. That is not the policy of an organisation who promotes unhealthy dogs.

 

"Dwarfism (bow legs) is promoted by the Kennel Club.......... Not breeding Dwarf dogs on any level would wipe out a few breeds of dogs. I kinda like some of them though?"

 

​Oh dear. Dwarfism has absolutely NOTHING to do with bow legs. Dwarfism in dogs is just that, the same as people. They dont have deformities, they are just very small. Dogs bred and born with bow legs have bones that are too short on one side, that will not grow like the other side, which is why they turn in. Its nothing at all to do with any "inherited" health problem, its breeding from dogs with an existing condition and breeding from them to produce more. These problems may skip a generation but I guarantee you they will come back and often a lot worse.

 

"I don't particularly like bow legged terriers but if I had a one that was a good worker then I wouldn't be parting with it"

Yes, agreed. I did say that too.

 

"Give me a bow legged worker than a straight legged waste of space any day."

Yes, I agree, if thats what you are looking for.

 

"Speaking of not breeding dogs on any level.

Most borders should not be bred so as they are supposed to be a "working" breed and most cannot work for the most part? Only breeding more crap."

Who says most Borders (or any other terrier for that matter) cant work? I think what you actually mean, is that most Borders (and other breeds) are never given the opportunity to work, NOT that they cant!! There is a huge difference and your sweeping statement is completely untrue. Their breed standard like all others was not made up by the KC, it was written by the very people that started the breed. The breed standard merely is a blueprint of a working terrier, Its type, temperament and description. The fact you claim most are "crap" and dont work is wrong on every level because the majority like every other breed on this earth are pets. They will never get the chance.

 

Lets face it, how many dogs of ANY breed actually do the job they were originally designed for?

 

"If I owned a "working" border I would find a suitable fell to cross it with."

​Wouldnt worry about that cos finding one (according to you) is near impossible.

 

"Then again I wouldn't be worried about paperwork or looks too much. Just working ability."

Again no stress, because they cant work.

 

"Had a few border/lakies years ago and there weren't bad and had straight legs too............. "

There you go, probably the Border influence!!

 

 

Hi Dawn,

 

Nope. I'm not even a little bit confused.

 

Answers to your reply in blue below.

 

"Strange then how the K.C. promotes breeding of multiple deformed breeds of dog? Through fashionable trends and inbred breeding policies allowed for decades by the K.C. (all litters are registered so they know what is going on)."

No they dont at all. And, Im not sure you are aware that all the breeds that were considered "exaggerated" are subject to veterinary checks at every champ show (BOB winner) and if deemed unfit in any way are not allowed to compete and their award taken away. That is not the policy of an organisation who promotes unhealthy dogs.

Since I was a child I have been fascinated about dogs. Hunting dogs took my particular attention, but I took time to educate myself on past and presents breeds of all types, shapes, sizes and there uses. So I am not talking "exaggerated" features but created breeds from abnormal genes.

There are a number of small and short-legged dogs, but a few are truly “dwarf” breeds. While many breeds can suffer from abnormal dwarfism, there are certain breeds that were created. There are also various types of dwarfism, but let's focus on the dog breeds that have what’s called “micromelic achondroplasia,” meaning they have short legs but are standard sized elsewhere - i.e. dwarfs, which then are again "intentionally" bred to each other as per the "breed standard". Dachunds, Dandie Dimont, Skye Terrier, Scottish Terrier, Pug, Welsh Corgi, Cardigan Corgi, English Bulldog, French Bulldog, Basset Hounds are all truly genetically deformed having the dwarf gene. Yet the KC and their breed standards encourages continuation of inbreeding this deformity?? lets not even speak about breathing issues with pugs, boxers or excessive skin disorders with the shar-pai or Neapolitan mastiffs or heart issues with Dogue be Bordeaux or hip issues with German shepherds? The "recent" changes to the pointless "award" scheme is only since the media and general public copped on to the effects of the closed breeding system and inbreeding abnormalities which were and are being promoted and of course the likes of the main sponsor (Pedigree Chum) pulling out of the KC showcase event - Crufts.

 

"Give me a bow legged worker than a straight legged waste of space any day."

Yes, I agree, if thats what you are looking for.

Not particularly. I like a nice stamp of a work like dog like anyone. without KC influence. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

 

Most borders should not be bred so as they are supposed to be a "working" breed and most cannot work for the most part? Only breeding more crap."

Who says most Borders (or any other terrier for that matter) cant work? I think what you actually mean, is that most Borders (and other breeds) are never given the opportunity to work, NOT that they cant!! There is a huge difference and your sweeping statement is completely untrue. Their breed standard like all others was not made up by the KC, it was written by the very people that started the breed. The breed standard merely is a blueprint of a working terrier, Its type, temperament and description. The fact you claim most are "crap" and dont work is wrong on every level because the majority like every other breed on this earth are pets. They will never get the chance.

 

Lets face it, how many dogs of ANY breed actually do the job they were originally designed for?

I say (IMHO) most Borders have not got it "in them" to do a hard days graft because it has been breed "out of them" by the KC pet crowd who never test them. It is not that I don't like the breed, but I don't like what has been done to the breed. I would be honest with myself and the dogs I own, as kennel blindness is an awful affliction. Also exactly what you said above most don't get the chance as their owners simply don't work them and keep pets. Would you think a Yorkshire terrier is as good a ratting terrier as was used in the rat pits during the later part of the 18th century? I know a few border lads who's heart is broken trying to get a worker. They have gone through countless dogs "trying" to get somewhere and when they do get one they cannot find a suitable border to cross it with...... because they are not there to find? There is a huge difference in thinking a dog will do it because it is a terrier and then expect terrier pets to do as a true working strain was bred. Even then culls are born after decades of breeding workers. You are right the breed standard was written by the people that championed (developed) the breed and then given the blessing of the KC which from then on restricts the gene pool. Also people that go down the KC (show) root developing such "false" standards are far less likely to ever get up off of their arses and work them like they were intended and dig a hole to them, that is if they managed to stay in the hole in the first place.

 

Lets face it, how many dogs of ANY breed actually do the job they were originally designed for?

Most types of any decent line/ strain of Fell, Patterdale or White dogs do their job. Lads that "face it" weekly working their dogs and do not dream about working their dogs. Dogs that have no other purpose than work. No monetary value as their owners wouldn't sell them or their pups. No papers or false standards needed.

 

"If I owned a "working" border I would find a suitable fell to cross it with."

​Wouldnt worry about that cos finding one (according to you) is near impossible.

At least we can agree on that! Life is far too short to break my balls looking for unicorns (working borders). I much prefer actually working dogs that have been kindly passed down from the previous generation of honest dog men. I hope I do as well as them and hand on what I was gifted to the next generation - without a shilling changing hands. Only honesty and workmanship of the dogs guiding breeding.

 

"Then again I wouldn't be worried about paperwork or looks too much. Just working ability."

Again no stress, because they cant work.

We are really starting to agree on matters. Brilliant stuff.

 

"Had a few border/lakies years ago and there weren't bad and had straight legs too............. "

There you go, probably the Border influence!!

No. We are off track again. The lakies were dumb hard and the borders lack lustre, so the border lack of fire in the belly tempered down the lakey fire, ending up with semi decent dogs at that time served us well.

 

Dawn, only teasing by the way, but why defend the KC or its goals? Remove the shackles of the closed KC breeding system and take your borders to a good Fell or Black dog. The resulting pups may well liberate you and do the job as intended in the original breed standards??????

Edited October 21, 2015 by Corkman

[Dawn B 212]

I think you'll find Dawn that most borders WONT work.

It's nothing to do with being giving the chance.

It's to do with the delusional owners that the breed has been unfortunate enough to end up with.

There's some chance still for the JRT as there are still a few lads who have the breed as a worker at heart.

 

You can throw all the fact for this and that Dawn about the K.C. and standards etc. but the fact is that the border is noticeable nowadays in the hunting field by his absence.

Most breeds are noticeable by their absence. Its not just Borders. You cannot say with any degree of certainty that any dog will not work. Thats madness. The main issue with Borders is that they are later maturers and a lot of people wont give them time, they just get rid and say no good! They start early and they say "too hard!" Regardless of that the majority of dogs whatever they are are bred as pets. They will never be given a chance to do the job they were originally bred for.

[Dawn B 212]

Corkman

Im not defending the KC, they dont need defending, but its ludicrous to blame them for all the bad in dogs.

Why are you not targeting Cockerpoo breeders? Shihchon, Cavapoo, Labradoodles etc.. They sell for thousands!!! All the Wolf hybrids, Northern Inuits, Tamaskans etc.. Two thousand pounds and above!! NO KC!!! Just greedy people who exploit dogs, see a market and supply it!!

 

The health issues you mention can be tested for and its all responsible breeders can do. But Ive read about terriers and Lurchers on here umpteen times dropping dead, having fits, collapsing etc etc having heart issues, is that ok because they are not KC registered? Of course it isnt!! But some people think because it is because the dog could work a bit! Its just sad, well no it isnt. Perhaps its preventable with careful breeding? See where Im coming from? The KC is not to blame for bad dogs, its not to blame for money grabbing b*****ds who breed mongrels and sell them for thousands and idiots buy them!! Plus of course nobody is forced to buy a kc reg dog are they?

[neil cooney 10,416]

 

I think you'll find Dawn that most borders WONT work.

It's nothing to do with being giving the chance.

It's to do with the delusional owners that the breed has been unfortunate enough to end up with.

There's some chance still for the JRT as there are still a few lads who have the breed as a worker at heart.

 

You can throw all the fact for this and that Dawn about the K.C. and standards etc. but the fact is that the border is noticeable nowadays in the hunting field by his absence.

Most breeds are noticeable by their absence. Its not just Borders. You cannot say with any degree of certainty that any dog will not work. Thats madness. The main issue with Borders is that they are later maturers and a lot of people wont give them time, they just get rid and say no good! They start early and they say "too hard!" Regardless of that the majority of dogs whatever they are are bred as pets. They will never be given a chance to do the job they were originally bred for.

 

To do the job they were originally bred for Dawn they have to be bred up to date for that actual job.

Those behind the border don't breed for that job but live in the past when it comes to terrierwork.

With your way of thinking Dawn the Dalmation should be able to run alongside a coach on a rough road for 20 miles every day !!!!!

That's history. Those who like to keep the work in their dogs live in the present.

 

It's nothing personal Dawn but it annoys me when people compare dogs who haven't earned the title of worker to workers, especially as I know how bloody hard it is for these tykes to earn the title.

IMO it's like saying that a school ground bully who can smack around other kids is as good as Muhammad Ali.

[Raymond 618]

can people put up a load of different pics of these KC jack russels. As a kid growing up I tell ya what was called jack russels where never really 2 a like. Most russels going around years ago I never seen enough of them that looked alike that a standard could have been made from them.Plus they where all ugly things with bow legs and would try and have a go of the biigest stray dog running the streets. I never came accross a bad one in anyway they where used.If that was just ratting or bushing or digging.They allseemed to be good at what the individual dog I came accross was used by there owner for. Best little guard dogs going aswell. There was a man 25 years ago with a pack of 5 and the 5 of them all looked different physically and all called jackers as we called them as kids. They where white, bow legged and had the same colour patches on them. Different shaped boddies,heads but all called jack russels.If the five of them where walked around the show ring I wonder what the judge would have picked. Yes there was even small white terriers with straight legs and different coloured patches called jackers aswell so whats what. Which jackers did the kennel clubs go for.Or do we all have different experiencess of what a jacker is

[tinytiger 822]

Hi Marshman

 

No. I wouldnt breed from any animal that had a genetic deformity. These things get worse not better. They can skip generations and be a damn sight worse in the next one. Bowed legs are deformed bones due to irresponsible breeding. Nothing more. Yes Id work the dog if it were able, but Id not perpetuate the problem by pushing it into the next generation.

achondroplasy(bandy leggs) is a dominant gene so it cant skip generations-they either get it or they dont-dug to some right good dogs of that type-if it waas the only thing wrong with a dog id feed them

[Alli 923]

There's Ali ant Tyson both world champions and Ali says Tyson is too ugly to be champion, where Ali is the pretty champion. And how many agree with Ali being the greatest??

theres only one alli lol

[Corkman 944]

Corkman

Im not defending the KC, they dont need defending, but its ludicrous to blame them for all the bad in dogs.

Why are you not targeting Cockerpoo breeders? Shihchon, Cavapoo, Labradoodles etc.. They sell for thousands!!! All the Wolf hybrids, Northern Inuits, Tamaskans etc.. Two thousand pounds and above!! NO KC!!! Just greedy people who exploit dogs, see a market and supply it!!

 

The health issues you mention can be tested for and its all responsible breeders can do. But Ive read about terriers and Lurchers on here umpteen times dropping dead, having fits, collapsing etc etc having heart issues, is that ok because they are not KC registered? Of course it isnt!! But some people think because it is because the dog could work a bit! Its just sad, well no it isnt. Perhaps its preventable with careful breeding? See where Im coming from? The KC is not to blame for bad dogs, its not to blame for money grabbing b*****ds who breed mongrels and sell them for thousands and idiots buy them!! Plus of course nobody is forced to buy a kc reg dog are they?

I agree the KC don't need defending it needs abolishing! I do blame the KC culture and the dog fanciers chasing rosettes, cash and piped dreams of fictional breed histories for the state that many current breeds are in today.

Regards crossbred cockerpoos and the likes I have absolutely zero interest in none working pets, but at least a crossbred mongrel has less of a chance of inheriting faults like highly inbred show dogs.

Regards testing for faults? Most working dog people wouldn't have the money to test for such things and the fact that real work soon shows up any faults and the dog wouldn't last. Also mongrel working dogs can be openly outcrossed to whatever they want when they want as no standard or registration system dictates how they breed their dogs. Therefore less of a chance of faults? Everyone should breed responsibly with the knowledge of how their dogs are bred.

 

Agree about money grabbers not being good for dogs in general.

 

Going back to a previous post. Take the money out of the working dog game and all people would want or need them for is work.

 

Would you ever contemplate outcrossing your thoroughbreds if they lacked working ability?

 

Is the border in your avatar undershot or level biting or is it just the photo?

Edited October 22, 2015 by Corkman

[foxbolter 447]

I don't use my terriers as running dogs only legal earth work so when their in earth's doing what they were bred for their bowed legs are tucked under their bellies shuffling through a earth they bowed legs wouldn't bother them dawn b we can see why you are into terriers and that is for different reasons than most but each to their own and good luck I hope you earn plenty of money and reach your goal

[pablo esc 1,598]

Had an seen russel terriers when we was a knee high as a grasshopper, ha, good ones., now here the about the man who outcross, ( wouldn't know what in em). What's that say about them, and not the dog, . Yes saw the show, man ourselves

[stevo79 569]

Dawns a peddler

[Wxm 1,638]

Jrt for sale 300 pounds with papers 100 without that's what happens all about money with papers

 

300 with papers?? they are the best part of 300 around me now with no papers .... they'll be 450 - 550 if they kc them

 

http://www.pets4homes.co.uk/search/?type_id=3&breed_id=157&location=wrexham&distance=20&results=10&sort=distance

[Wxm 1,638]

ive said it tons of times working dogs should be at the top end price wise ... pups out of good working parents should be no less than 400 with or without papers ... more goes into them than some of the useless bags of shite's some people have the cheek to call dogs

[Corkman 944]

ive said it tons of times working dogs should be at the top end price wise ... pups out of good working parents should be no less than 400 with or without papers ... more goes into them than some of the useless bags of shite's some people have the cheek to call dogs

 

Why? that's total boll*x. Money and working dogs has only caused so much grief in this game and added to the breeding of even more rubbish with lads trying to recoup the €450+ they spent on a Cull with a fictitious breeding history. If you cannot afford to provide for a litter of working pups then don't breed them.

 

I have read all the tripe on here about doing this and that for the bitches and pups, La'maze classes for the bitch and owners, ultrasound, jabs, etc, etc. Load of old pish. If something goes wrong and "your" bitch/pups needs attention "you" sort it and never passing the buck on to the next man. Before any of the moaning starts I have dealt with plenty of men who do not have a penny to their name and still manage to more than adequately care for their workers, including veterinary attention when needed - producing fine healthy pups. I do agree with giving lads the option of injecting their pups "at cost" to them and I personally wouldn't leave a pup out of a kennel without jabs. therefore pups cost €10-15 each, if not just given away.

 

Would these pups bred any worse and than a pup with a price tag of €450-€1,000. No. Would they be bred for work and nothing else. Yes. The higher the price tag on a pup doesn't make a better working dog!

 

Not generalising but money and big names seems to be a big thing that side of the pond? ....... and providing (miniatures) for the U.S. and now European market.

 

Maybe it is because where I'm from dog men do not charge each other anything for working dogs. Offers of well bred pups are regular amongst lads once your immediate digging partners are sorted. If someone becomes stuck there is always plenty of lads willing to help you get sorted. The hound packs are the same. Breeding is openly shared amongst packs and if a sire is used a pup goes back to the pack. Good younger lads with genuine interest are also given pups to get them started and it is amazing how the whole cycle comes around full circle. Maybe some day you will get a pup back in return if theirs turns out better than yours. It feels good to give........ if someone lets you down, then a lesson is learnt and doors close. But the cycle continues as one bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch. A concept worth trying :-)

 

I imagine some lads want to go from nothing to fame in as fast a time as possible and try to buy their way to the top? These are "some" of the same lads who haven't taken the time to learn about what it takes to own working dogs and respect for the quarry and landowners.

 

IMHO it is terriermen that will ruin terrierwork selling game dogs to people who shouldn't have them and do not know how to care for such animals, then all over Facebook, THL and their local pub spoofing about their wonder dog with one dig under its belt.

 

A downward spiral is before us. Only terriermen can stop it.

 

I'm glad and count myself lucky I live outside that world. Enough said on this thread.