paulus 26 Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Paulus Youl have a cold man Man flu lol Ebola is mild compared to this Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Truther 1,579 Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Roll up, roll up, get your dose of mercury and various other nasties 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
budharley 945 Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 All mine have had it and so have we and had it previous years Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The one 8,513 Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Thought it was made up of eggs and a injection ? I get one every year working with students and the worse ive had is a red patch on my arm and one year a sore throat for a couple of days Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmilam08 193 Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Surely it's Better for them to build up a natural defence and by getting the flu there body builds up certain defences? Or does the vac help build these defences? My little girl 3 now and funnily enough we had her down hospital yesterday for the first time in Her life because she got a croup type cough,after a 6 hour wait a trainee or junior doctor after looking through a medical book tells us the best bet is to fill her full of some type of steroids I can't remember the name of to help her with her breathing! f***ing steroids for a cough, give her a warm bath calpol and early nite she woke up good as gold this morning 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Silversnake 1,099 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I would never inject mercury into my kids knowingly... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) LOL mercury, you forgot the formaldehyde......or perhaps shouldn't believe all one reads. http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/scary-flu-vaccine-ingredients/ Simple math behind scary flu vaccine ingredients 2015/10/08The Original Skeptical Raptor274 Comments When dealing with those pushing pseudoscience, like the antivaccination cult, the most frustrating thing is that they tend to ignore and deny the most basic tenets of science. If denying the fact of gravity would further their goals of “proving” vaccines are neither effective nor safe, they would do so. For all I know, they have. Sam Harris, who has a Ph.D. in neuroscience from UCLA (which is ironic), and is one of leading science philosophers of our generation, says this about those who cling to pseudoscience: Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says, “Well, that’s not how I choose to think about water.”? All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesn’t share those values, the conversation is over. If someone doesn’t value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic? If the antivaccination movement didn’t lead to epidemics of long-gone diseases, which can harm and kill children, the conversation would be over. I would just put the vaccine deniers in the same group as evolution deniers (creationists) or gravity deniers (there has to be some, somewhere). I would mock their pseudoscience, and move on. Of course, their denialism does lead to deaths of children, so we have to do what is right, and stop their lies, misinformation and ignorance in every forum we can. We have to appeal to scientific values, and despite the fact that antivaccination pushers don’t share those values, we must continue to try. I have gotten enough emails and comments from people that they have started to vaccinate because of what I have written, so maybe some child’s life is better because all of us who support vaccines are heard. Mathematics and science For some, mathematics is the foundation of all science. Biology is dependent upon chemistry which is dependent upon physics which is dependent upon mathematics. Of course, I’m oversimplifying the relationships between the various branches of basic science, but my own scientific education moved in roughly the direction of advanced mathematics through basic physics to organic and physical chemistry to biology, cell biology, biochemistry and physiology. Without mathematics, the scientific method might not make sense, because it requires statistical analysis to find small changes or differences. Though it is long lost from my brain, advanced statistics was necessary in every analysis I performed in my science life. It allowed me to find biological changes with tiny amounts of a hormone or growth factor. I didn’t observe the changes directly, only through mathematical analysis did it become apparent. Vaccine ingredientsAll of those scary ingredients in the flu vaccine. Except, they’re really not scary.Above is a photo circulating around social networks that attempt to point out all of the scary flu vaccine ingredients. Of course, if one has an understanding of A) basic human physiology, and basic mathematics, including how small numbers are really small, this photo with the scary ingredients highlighted would be laughable. Well, I do have and understanding of both, and this is laughable. I mean so laughable, it’s possible I pulled a muscle. Formaldehyde and vaccinesLet’s start with with first highlighted ingredient, formaldehyde. This simple bio-organic molecule is used in the purification of the vaccine (the last thing we want is contamination from viruses or bacteria)– 99.9% of which is removed during the final steps of manufacturing. The package labeling does not include the amount of formaldehyde in the vaccines because it is so tiny, so minuscule, so veritably invisible, that the amount actually cannot be measured. It’s possible that there is actually no formaldehyde in solution, because it cannot be measured, but the chances are good there is some because the manufacturing process can’t dilute out the vaccine sufficiently to guarantee that every picogram (that’s one trillionth of a gram) is removed, because it would dilute the vaccine’s antigen too. But I can tell you where formaldehyde can be measure. The normal blood level of formaldehyde is 2.74 +/- 0.14 mg/L. A normal child has a blood volume of 2-3 L, so a normal child has 5-9 mg of formaldehyde floating in her blood, about 1,000,000X more than found in a dose of vaccine. Is that math clear? It would take probably 10-20 million doses of vaccines to just slightly increase the formaldehyde level in your child. Now you might think “how did that evil formaldehyde get into my sweet child whom I feed organic foods, and don’t let them touch vaccines.” Well, not only do your math skills suck (let me remind the reader, 10 million doses of vaccines to measurably move the formaldehyde level–all at once), but so does your physiology knowledge. The body produces formaldehyde as a byproduct of metabolizing alcohols (not necessarily just from a beer, but the alcohol that is produced in the body and in other foods). And lots of foods contain formaldehyde, including fruits, nuts, and other yummy things. In addition, formaldehyde is filtered from the blood rather quickly (since it is toxic), and its half-life, that is the average time one-half of the molecules of formaldehyde stay in the blood, is around 1 minute. It does not accumulate, so even if you got that 10-20 million doses of vaccines, the tiny amount of formaldehyde injected would be gone in 1-2 minutes. It is simple math. Yes, formaldehyde is a carcinogen, it can cause cancer. However, the reference dose (that is the maximum daily dose over a lifetime that would be considered safe) for formaldehyde is around 0.2 mg/kg weight/day. In other words, an average child, let’s say 20 kg (about 48 lbs), could consume 4 mg of formaldehyde a day safely. Again, about 1 million times more formaldehyde than in a single dose of vaccines. And as far as I know, even amongst the most enthusiastic and ardent vaccine supporters, not one of them is demanding that we give children 1 million vaccinations. Every day. For the rest of their lives. Once again, it is just the math. Are we clear on this? The math doesn’t support the ludicrous claims that formaldehyde in vaccines is poisoning our children. Thiomersal and vaccinesSo let’s move on to the other highlighted flu vaccine ingredients, and that’s the old canard, dangerous thiomersal (or thimerosal in the USA–my education is 100% US based, but for some reason I’ve used the non-USA spelling for 30 years). Let’s make some points clear right now. This is NOT mercury in its elemental form, which you might remember from old-style medical thermometers. So there isn’t a pool of mercury in the vaccine vial. Moreover, thiomersal is ONLY used, at least in vaccines, in multi-use vials, these days, only the flu vaccine. Thiomersal is a toxic compound, there is no denying that. But let’s get back to math. The toxicity of compounds is measured through an analysis called the %93response_relationship'>dose-response relationship, which describes the change in effect on an organism caused by differing doses of a compound after a certain exposure time. Table salt is tasty and safe in small amounts, but could kill you if taken in huge amounts. The dose-response relationship provides a graph that mathematically establishes what amounts of a compound causes what effects. This would seem to be a logical, and easily understood concept, but for many individuals, a bad substance is always bad. First of all, the half-life of thiomersal in blood is around 2.2 days. That might seem long, but it means half is gone in a couple of days, cleared out by the kidneys. It does not accumulate. But the math is even more telling. This flu vaccine, given once a year, has a maximum dose of 25 micrograms of mercury (but not elemental mercury). According to an NIH database, the LD50, that is, the approximate dose at which 50% of organisms will die (in this case a mouse), is 98 mg/kg body weight, if delivered subcutaneously, generally how vaccines are delivered. A 20 kg child would get 25 micrograms of non-elemental mercury (this is important, thimerosal does not equal mercury) in one injection once a year. The theoretical LD50 dose for that same child would be around 2000 mg of thiomersal, or about ,000 times higher than the amount of thiomersal in one vaccine dose–if vaccines used in children actually had thiomersal, which it doesn’t. So, you would have to inject your child ,000 times a day, every day, to make it potentially toxic. And no, dose-response relationships are not linear. That doesn’t mean that there’s some tiny risk of death from even a small dose of thiomersal–there is actually NO risk. And again, since there’s no thiomersal in pediatric vaccines this argument is ridiculous. But more than all that, we have solid scientific data that show us that thiomersal is totally unrelated to autism, and is completely safe in vaccines. This illogical removal of thiomersal from vaccines makes it nearly impossible to have multi-use vials, so every vaccine has to be in a single-use prefilled syringe, which has rapidly driven up the costs of vaccines. Wait. That’s more evidence that antivaccination lunatics are in the pockets of Big Pharma. They pushed to get rid of thiomersal to make more profits for Big Pharma. That was an awesome move on their part. ConclusionsSo there it is. Simple math shows us that these are not dangerous toxins being injected into our kids. Sadly, simple math may not be in the list of skills of vaccine deniers. More simple math problems for vaccine deniers in my follow up article. Editor’s note: This article was originally published in March 2014. It has been completely revised and updated to include more comprehensive information, to improve readability and to add current research. Oh, and to remove an egregious mathematics error. Key citations: Franks SJ. A mathematical model for the absorption and metabolism of formaldehyde vapour by humans. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2005 Aug 15;206(3):309-20. Epub 2005 Jan 11. PubMed PMID: 16039942. Pfab R, Mückter H, Roider G, Zilker T. Clinical course of severe poisoning with thiomersal. J Toxicol Clin Toxicol. 1996;34(4):453-60. PubMed PMID: 8699562. a roundup http://skepdic.com/fluvaccine.html Edited October 13, 2015 by sandymere 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 47,970 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 It's hard to have faith in child medical services sometimes when the red book you get when your kids are born dates back to the 50s on the weight chart !! The people on maternity and NICU are mostly excellent but some of the buffoons in the local clinics need fired !! I have seen so many new parents walking out of those places in tears after being told that perfectly healthy looking infants are "too fat" or "too skinny" I wouldn't trust most at these clinics to treat my dog 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Give them everyone they get offered, have everyone you get offered..... we get fed all this immune boosting rubbish sales speil in the form of supplements, diets etc when the greatest immune boost you can give your children is to get them vaccinated. Just seems common sense to me 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DIDO.1 22,846 Posted October 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Ours have had all their jabs, and will continue to have them....but I done want to just do it automatically....... This flu vaccine isnt a jab, it's a nasal spray.....we have just got him through a long period of coughing and runny nose with has been hard work.... I'm not interested in wild theory....just general opinion......and I actually trust the thl consensus...... Will the nasal flu vaccine likely make him ill and what would you do? At the minute most people have said they would get it so I think we will Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 47,970 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Give them everyone they get offered, have everyone you get offered..... we get fed all this immune boosting rubbish sales speil in the form of supplements, diets etc when the greatest immune boost you can give your children is to get them vaccinated. Just seems common sense to me Pretty much agree with that but I would add do your research and satisfy yourself it's the right thing.........the government is not always right Thalidomide being the most stark and terrible example It's amazing how many parents don't read up on stuff. Edited October 13, 2015 by WILF 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Malt 379 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Sandy, how many different strains of the flu virus does this nasal spray innoculate against? I've never got this flu jab thingy when 'flu' itself is just a catch all name for a collection of subtype viruses.. Not that I object, my kids have had it and one of them was jabbed against bird flu a few years back Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Ours have had all their jabs, and will continue to have them....but I done want to just do it automatically....... This flu vaccine isnt a jab, it's a nasal spray.....we have just got him through a long period of coughing and runny nose with has been hard work.... I'm not interested in wild theory....just general opinion......and I actually trust the thl consensus...... Will the nasal flu vaccine likely make him ill and what would you do? At the minute most people have said they would get it so I think we will Flu is a virus and so antibiotics will not work against it, so if a child gets flue which goes on to become a viral pneumonia things can become challenging……better to get the vaccine and not have to face that. Most healthy children will get over flu, although they will be pretty poorly for a while, but some won’t and if we can save even one child in the UK this year from death we have done a good thing. Vaccines save lives! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Sandy, how many different strains of the flu virus does this nasal spray innoculate against? I've never got this flu jab thingy when 'flu' itself is just a catch all name for a collection of subtype viruses.. Not that I object, my kids have had it and one of them was jabbed against bird flu a few years back It varies, basically they try to predict the most likely flu strains that will be prevalent in the coming season and include them, it’s not full proof but it usually includes the more dangerous strains which is the important bit. It’s a bit like putting on your child’s seatbelt, hopefully you won't need it but nice to know it’s there and fastened properly just in case 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Silversnake 1,099 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) <p> LOL mercury, you forgot the formaldehyde......or perhaps shouldn't believe all one reads. http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/scary-flu-vaccine-ingredients/ Simple math behind scary flu vaccine ingredients 2015/10/08The Original Skeptical Raptor274 Comments When dealing with those pushing pseudoscience, like the antivaccination cult, the most frustrating thing is that they tend to ignore and deny the most basic tenets of science. If denying the fact of gravity would further their goals of proving vaccines are neither effective nor safe, they would do so. For all I know, they have. Sam Harris, who has a Ph.D. in neuroscience from UCLA (which is ironic), and is one of leading science philosophers of our generation, says this about those who cling to pseudoscience: Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says, Well, thats not how I choose to think about water.? All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesnt share those values, the conversation is over. If someone doesnt value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove they should value it? If someone doesnt value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic? If the antivaccination movement didnt lead to epidemics of long-gone diseases, which can harm and kill children, the conversation would be over. I would just put the vaccine deniers in the same group as evolution deniers (creationists) or gravity deniers (there has to be some, somewhere). I would mock their pseudoscience, and move on. Of course, their denialism does lead to deaths of children, so we have to do what is right, and stop their lies, misinformation and ignorance in every forum we can. We have to appeal to scientific values, and despite the fact that antivaccination pushers dont share those values, we must continue to try. I have gotten enough emails and comments from people that they have started to vaccinate because of what I have written, so maybe some childs life is better because all of us who support vaccines are heard. Mathematics and science For some, mathematics is the foundation of all science. Biology is dependent upon chemistry which is dependent upon physics which is dependent upon mathematics. Of course, Im oversimplifying the relationships between the various branches of basic science, but my own scientific education moved in roughly the direction of advanced mathematics through basic physics to organic and physical chemistry to biology, cell biology, biochemistry and physiology. Without mathematics, the scientific method might not make sense, because it requires statistical analysis to find small changes or differences. Though it is long lost from my brain, advanced statistics was necessary in every analysis I performed in my science life. It allowed me to find biological changes with tiny amounts of a hormone or growth factor. I didnt observe the changes directly, only through mathematical analysis did it become apparent. Vaccine ingredientsAll of those scary ingredients in the flu vaccine. Except, theyre really not scary. Above is a photo circulating around social networks that attempt to point out all of the scary flu vaccine ingredients. Of course, if one has an understanding of A) basic human physiology, and basic mathematics, including how small numbers are really small, this photo with the scary ingredients highlighted would be laughable. Well, I do have and understanding of both, and this is laughable. I mean so laughable, its possible I pulled a muscle. Formaldehyde and vaccines Lets start with with first highlighted ingredient, formaldehyde. This simple bio-organic molecule is used in the purification of the vaccine (the last thing we want is contamination from viruses or bacteria) 99.9% of which is removed during the final steps of manufacturing. The package labeling does not include the amount of formaldehyde in the vaccines because it is so tiny, so minuscule, so veritably invisible, that the amount actually cannot be measured. Its possible that there is actually no formaldehyde in solution, because it cannot be measured, but the chances are good there is some because the manufacturing process cant dilute out the vaccine sufficiently to guarantee that every picogram (thats one trillionth of a gram) is removed, because it would dilute the vaccines antigen too. But I can tell you where formaldehyde can be measure. The normal blood level of formaldehyde is 2.74 +/- 0.14 mg/L. A normal child has a blood volume of 2-3 L, so a normal child has 5-9 mg of formaldehyde floating in her blood, about 1,000,000X more than found in a dose of vaccine. Is that math clear? It would take probably 10-20 million doses of vaccines to just slightly increase the formaldehyde level in your child. Now you might think how did that evil formaldehyde get into my sweet child whom I feed organic foods, and dont let them touch vaccines. Well, not only do your math skills suck (let me remind the reader, 10 million doses of vaccines to measurably move the formaldehyde levelall at once), but so does your physiology knowledge. The body produces formaldehyde as a byproduct of metabolizing alcohols (not necessarily just from a beer, but the alcohol that is produced in the body and in other foods). And lots of foods contain formaldehyde, including fruits, nuts, and other yummy things. In addition, formaldehyde is filtered from the blood rather quickly (since it is toxic), and its half-life, that is the average time one-half of the molecules of formaldehyde stay in the blood, is around 1 minute. It does not accumulate, so even if you got that 10-20 million doses of vaccines, the tiny amount of formaldehyde injected would be gone in 1-2 minutes. It is simple math. Yes, formaldehyde is a carcinogen, it can cause cancer. However, the reference dose (that is the maximum daily dose over a lifetime that would be considered safe) for formaldehyde is around 0.2 mg/kg weight/day. In other words, an average child, lets say 20 kg (about 48 lbs), could consume 4 mg of formaldehyde a day safely. Again, about 1 million times more formaldehyde than in a single dose of vaccines. And as far as I know, even amongst the most enthusiastic and ardent vaccine supporters, not one of them is demanding that we give children 1 million vaccinations. Every day. For the rest of their lives. Once again, it is just the math. Are we clear on this? The math doesnt support the ludicrous claims that formaldehyde in vaccines is poisoning our children. Thiomersal and vaccines So lets move on to the other highlighted flu vaccine ingredients, and thats the old canard, dangerous thiomersal (or thimerosal in the USAmy education is 100% US based, but for some reason Ive used the non-USA spelling for 30 years). Lets make some points clear right now. This is NOT mercury in its elemental form, which you might remember from old-style medical thermometers. So there isnt a pool of mercury in the vaccine vial. Moreover, thiomersal is ONLY used, at least in vaccines, in multi-use vials, these days, only the flu vaccine. Thiomersal is a toxic compound, there is no denying that. But lets get back to math. The toxicity of compounds is measured through an analysis called the dose-response relationship, which describes the change in effect on an organism caused by differing doses of a compound after a certain exposure time. Table salt is tasty and safe in small amounts, but could kill you if taken in huge amounts. The dose-response relationship provides a graph that mathematically establishes what amounts of a compound causes what effects. This would seem to be a logical, and easily understood concept, but for many individuals, a bad substance is always bad. First of all, the half-life of thiomersal in blood is around 2.2 days. That might seem long, but it means half is gone in a couple of days, cleared out by the kidneys. It does not accumulate. But the math is even more telling. This flu vaccine, given once a year, has a maximum dose of 25 micrograms of mercury (but not elemental mercury). According to an NIH database, the LD50, that is, the approximate dose at which 50% of organisms will die (in this case a mouse), is 98 mg/kg body weight, if delivered subcutaneously, generally how vaccines are delivered. A 20 kg child would get 25 micrograms of non-elemental mercury (this is important, thimerosal does not equal mercury) in one injection once a year. The theoretical LD50 dose for that same child would be around 2000 mg of thiomersal, or about ,000 times higher than the amount of thiomersal in one vaccine doseif vaccines used in children actually had thiomersal, which it doesnt. So, you would have to inject your child ,000 times a day, every day, to make it potentially toxic. And no, dose-response relationships are not linear. That doesnt mean that theres some tiny risk of death from even a small dose of thiomersalthere is actually NO risk. And again, since theres no thiomersal in pediatric vaccines this argument is ridiculous. But more than all that, we have solid scientific data that show us that thiomersal is totally unrelated to autism, and is completely safe in vaccines. This illogical removal of thiomersal from vaccines makes it nearly impossible to have multi-use vials, so every vaccine has to be in a single-use prefilled syringe, which has rapidly driven up the costs of vaccines. Wait. Thats more evidence that antivaccination lunatics are in the pockets of Big Pharma. They pushed to get rid of thiomersal to make more profits for Big Pharma. That was an awesome move on their part. Conclusions So there it is. Simple math shows us that these are not dangerous toxins being injected into our kids. Sadly, simple math may not be in the list of skills of vaccine deniers. More simple math problems for vaccine deniers in my follow up article. Editors note: This article was originally published in March 2014. It has been completely revised and updated to include more comprehensive information, to improve readability and to add current research. Oh, and to remove an egregious mathematics error. Key citations: Franks SJ. A mathematical model for the absorption and metabolism of formaldehyde vapour by humans. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2005 Aug 15;206(3):309-20. Epub 2005 Jan 11. PubMed PMID: 16039942. Pfab R, Mückter H, Roider G, Zilker T. Clinical course of severe poisoning with thiomersal. J Toxicol Clin Toxicol. 1996;34(4):453-60. PubMed PMID: 8699562. a roundup http://skepdic.com/fluvaccine.html Interesting information sandymere and I am certainly not going to argue with you about this topic... Just curiously do you know of many cases of kids who haven't been vaccinated and suffered because of it? The reason I ask is because I know a few who didn't vaccinate and have never seemed to have any problems. For the record my kids were vaccinated at birth but I have had doubts whether I did the right thing by them. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. Edited October 13, 2015 by Silversnake Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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