Is The Apbt The True Bulldog Or A Terrier Cross?

[oneredtrim 148]

We will never know the whole , unvarnished truth , its all educated guesswork and supposition , part of the problem lies in the writers and authors of bygone times who sometimes didnt have a clue and plagarised each other until even the most unlikely stories became accepted as fact simply by being repeated enough over years ,another problem lies in the names /titles/labels we have always given our dogs ,were Bull terriers crossed with each other ,or was the name the result of breeding bulldogs on more terrier like lines ,were the smaller ,faster more terrier like bulldogs the ones that crossed over from the bull baiting to the dog pit, who knows?

 

not all supposition Stan...the paper trail of the union between the Northern pit and wigan terrier is held/owned by a doctor in the isle of man, the kc chucked a 5 figure bid at it in the 90's (early '90's)

[AKA-BRINDLE 879]

 

 

IMO the dogs that left these shores many years ago and eventually became the APBT in the states had no terrier blood whatsoever in them.

Think about it for a second.

The terrier of those days were mostly curs (same as today) that were used with no locator to bolt or locate their quarry using their voice.

NOW, what would such blood add to a dog that's job was completely different ?

Yes, when the rat pits were flourishing a smaller dog was needed and when bull and bear baiting was common a bigger heavier dog was needed but the dogs that went to America were tested on each other and the best was put to the best. The first breed ever recognised by the United Kennel Club in America was the APBT such was it's purity. IMO he and the greyhound are the most pure bred breeds there are.

American dog men have always labeled them Bulldogs but in no way have any of them ever compared them to the breed now known as the Olde English Bulldog, a breed that was in fact extinct and resurrected the same as the Irish Wolfhounds.

Up until only a few decades ago they were known as Bulldogs, Am Staffs, Pit Bulls,Pit Bulldogs and American Pit Bull Terriers. The purists have always hated the word "terrier" being in the name.

Joe Corvino, one of the fathers of the modern APBT used to call them American Staffords in his adds but bulldogs when he spoke of them.

 

I've no time for fighting sports but love the breed and it's history and the APBT is a classic example of how a breed can be destroyed by the peddlers.

Thats interesting.....

 

If im not wrong the Cajun rules were brought out in order to stop a dog needing to scratch into a dead dog to obtain victory.......so if the sole objective was the first dog to kill or inflict as much damage on the opponent as possible is the winner then where is the need for gameness ?......which as we know was a trait that existed in these dogs long before Cajun rules came into play.......yet a trait not really associated with Bulldogs.

 

Just something to think about.

 

Sorry Gnasher, completely wrong.

 

 

As for those who say they can see terrier influences in bulldogs ?

How ?

If they mean physically do they mean the head, 4 legs and a tail ?

If they mean temperament, then that baffles me too.

If you're saying that the bulldog has that do or die attitude that a terrier has ,just maybe the bulldog had that before already.

Do bulldogs hunt like terriers ?

Do they have a desire to go to ground ? (Mind you a friend of mine lost one to ground once, Eagla RIP.)

Can you hunt several bulldogs together ?

Sorry but to compare a proper bulldog to a proper working terrier is like comparing a Thoroughbred racehorse to a pit pony.

 

Let me put it this way.

If you owned a Ferrari and wanted to make it faster.

Would you take out it's engine and replace it with a Landrover engine ?

 

But decades to hundreds of years being bred purely for work...many of those terrier traits would be pretty much be lost...dont mean those genes was never in there...plenty of Terriers around with a bit of Bull in their make-up... that dont act like Pitdogs .

Edited August 14, 2015 by AKA-BRINDLE

[antg 1,777]

ive the opinion that terrier blood is certainly in the makeup of the APBT. black n tans show up in them and staffords.

[Astanley 11,568]

 

We will never know the whole , unvarnished truth , its all educated guesswork and supposition , part of the problem lies in the writers and authors of bygone times who sometimes didnt have a clue and plagarised each other until even the most unlikely stories became accepted as fact simply by being repeated enough over years ,another problem lies in the names /titles/labels we have always given our dogs ,were Bull terriers crossed with each other ,or was the name the result of breeding bulldogs on more terrier like lines ,were the smaller ,faster more terrier like bulldogs the ones that crossed over from the bull baiting to the dog pit, who knows?

 

not all supposition Stan...the paper trail of the union between the Northern pit and wigan terrier is held/owned by a doctor in the isle of man, the kc chucked a 5 figure bid at it in the 90's (early '90's)

 

 

Thats just it ,those who really knew ,where never published , maybe illiteracy , maybe the clandestine nature of the sport they followed ,or maybe they didnt crave fame ,If what you say about the doctor is true ,what a read that would be ,wouldnt mind betting it would debunk a few myths .

 

 

 

We will never know the whole , unvarnished truth , its all educated guesswork and supposition , part of the problem lies in the writers and authors of bygone times who sometimes didnt have a clue and plagarised each other until even the most unlikely stories became accepted as fact simply by being repeated enough over years ,another problem lies in the names /titles/labels we have always given our dogs ,were Bull terriers crossed with each other ,or was the name the result of breeding bulldogs on more terrier like lines ,were the smaller ,faster more terrier like bulldogs the ones that crossed over from the bull baiting to the dog pit, who knows?

 

not all supposition Stan...the paper trail of the union between the Northern pit and wigan terrier is held/owned by a doctor in the isle of man, the kc chucked a 5 figure bid at it in the 90's (early '90's)

[neil cooney 10,416]

This is bloody interesting, some great lads here with some decent knowledge.

 

So, Niel, are you saying that what we take as terrier traits now are actually bull traits that have been added into terrier blood?

 

Which I suppose begs the wider question of what are "bull terriers" of any breed?.....or are "bull terriers" a relatively young type in the scheme of things and the various types are just mixtures of bull and terrier types from way back in the day?

 

I genuinely don't know these things so I would be interested to read any replies from folks who do.

What I'm saying is that the temperament of working terriers and APBTs are completely different. How anyone can look at a bulldog and say they see a terrier influence is beyond me.

[neil cooney 10,416]

 

This is bloody interesting, some great lads here with some decent knowledge.

So, Niel, are you saying that what we take as terrier traits now are actually bull traits that have been added into terrier blood?

Which I suppose begs the wider question of what are "bull terriers" of any breed?.....or are "bull terriers" a relatively young type in the scheme of things and the various types are just mixtures of bull and terrier types from way back in the day?

I genuinely don't know these things so I would be interested to read any replies from folks who do.

Well Pit dog was entered to Nuttal's terriers back in the day for instance, work that one out ;-)

 

Not really, Mr Nuttall has always said that his dogs go back to his Grandfathers and it was him who put pit dog into his terriers.

So the bull blood was already there and BN always called them pit dogs, not staffs etc.

[neil cooney 10,416]

were did the red nose bulls come into it,are these a hybrid type,

Probably from inbreeding.

The red nose dogs were known as old family dogs.

[BGD 6,436]

 

 

This is bloody interesting, some great lads here with some decent knowledge.

 

So, Niel, are you saying that what we take as terrier traits now are actually bull traits that have been added into terrier blood?

 

Which I suppose begs the wider question of what are "bull terriers" of any breed?.....or are "bull terriers" a relatively young type in the scheme of things and the various types are just mixtures of bull and terrier types from way back in the day?

 

I genuinely don't know these things so I would be interested to read any replies from folks who do.

What I'm saying is that the temperament of working terriers and APBTs are completely different. How anyone can look at a bulldog and say they see a terrier influence is beyond me.

See I think my APBTs are closer to working terriers in temperament than they are to the bulldog types I've owned with less/no terrier influence (bandogs and other mastiff types which if you look at the history are basically just big bulldogs of old)

 

They're just more highly strung and hyper than what I consider a "bulldog" temperament.

Edited August 14, 2015 by BGD

[neil cooney 10,416]

We will never know the whole , unvarnished truth , its all educated guesswork and supposition , part of the problem lies in the writers and authors of bygone times who sometimes didnt have a clue and plagarised each other until even the most unlikely stories became accepted as fact simply by being repeated enough over years ,another problem lies in the names /titles/labels we have always given our dogs ,were Bull terriers crossed with each other ,or was the name the result of breeding bulldogs on more terrier like lines ,were the smaller ,faster more terrier like bulldogs the ones that crossed over from the bull baiting to the dog pit, who knows?

We do know the truth though.

The original post is about the APBT and his history is probably more documented than most breeds with the greyhound and fox hound being two notable exceptions.

Remember that the barbaric sports that caused the creation of these fighting breeds are relatively new in historic years. Before these so called sports these dogs originated from dogs used in battle and for catching dangerous game. The mastiffs.

[DogFox123 1,379]

 

 

This is bloody interesting, some great lads here with some decent knowledge.

So, Niel, are you saying that what we take as terrier traits now are actually bull traits that have been added into terrier blood?

Which I suppose begs the wider question of what are "bull terriers" of any breed?.....or are "bull terriers" a relatively young type in the scheme of things and the various types are just mixtures of bull and terrier types from way back in the day?

I genuinely don't know these things so I would be interested to read any replies from folks who do.

 

Well Pit dog was entered to Nuttal's terriers back in the day for instance, work that one out ;-)

Not really, Mr Nuttall has always said that his dogs go back to his Grandfathers and it was him who put pit dog into his terriers.

So the bull blood was already there and BN always called them pit dogs, not staffs etc.

That's what I'm on about, Nuttal's grandfather used Pit Dogs from Northumberland. I wasn't talking about Brian specifically. Edited August 14, 2015 by DogFox123

[DogFox123 1,379]

 

were did the red nose bulls come into it,are these a hybrid type,

 

Probably from inbreeding.

The red nose dogs were known as old family dogs.

They were a segment of the Old Family Red's, that when kept pure showed a Red nose.

[DogFox123 1,379]

http://www.game-dog.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3191&d=1122752493

 

http://www.game-dog.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3196&d=1122754381

 

http://www.game-dog.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3197&d=1122754381

 

http://www.game-dog.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3198&d=1122754381

 

http://www.game-dog.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3201&d=1122754685

 

http://www.game-dog.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3202&d=1122754685

http://www.amstaffs.net/historical/1900APBT.jpg

http://www.amstaffs.net/historical/1900APBT_a.jpg

http://www.amstaffs.net/historical/1900CornRemoverAdwAPBT.jpg

 

http://www.amstaffs.net/historical/1900photowteddybear.gif

 

http://www.amstaffs.net/historical/1908postcard_a.jpg

 

http://www.amstaffs.net/historical/1920Rex.jpg

 

http://www.amstaffs.net/historical/doginfeedlot.jpg

 

http://www.amstaffs.net/historical/doginfeedlot.jpg

 

http://www.amstaffs.net/historical/pit.jpg

 

http://www.amstaffs.net/historical/PitbullGirl.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Some old pics showing the variation of these dogs, can anyone see Terrier in there?

Edited August 14, 2015 by DogFox123

[gnasher16 30,121]

 

 

IMO the dogs that left these shores many years ago and eventually became the APBT in the states had no terrier blood whatsoever in them.

Think about it for a second.

The terrier of those days were mostly curs (same as today) that were used with no locator to bolt or locate their quarry using their voice.

NOW, what would such blood add to a dog that's job was completely different ?

Yes, when the rat pits were flourishing a smaller dog was needed and when bull and bear baiting was common a bigger heavier dog was needed but the dogs that went to America were tested on each other and the best was put to the best. The first breed ever recognised by the United Kennel Club in America was the APBT such was it's purity. IMO he and the greyhound are the most pure bred breeds there are.

American dog men have always labeled them Bulldogs but in no way have any of them ever compared them to the breed now known as the Olde English Bulldog, a breed that was in fact extinct and resurrected the same as the Irish Wolfhounds.

Up until only a few decades ago they were known as Bulldogs, Am Staffs, Pit Bulls,Pit Bulldogs and American Pit Bull Terriers. The purists have always hated the word "terrier" being in the name.

Joe Corvino, one of the fathers of the modern APBT used to call them American Staffords in his adds but bulldogs when he spoke of them.

 

I've no time for fighting sports but love the breed and it's history and the APBT is a classic example of how a breed can be destroyed by the peddlers.

Thats interesting.....

 

If im not wrong the Cajun rules were brought out in order to stop a dog needing to scratch into a dead dog to obtain victory.......so if the sole objective was the first dog to kill or inflict as much damage on the opponent as possible is the winner then where is the need for gameness ?......which as we know was a trait that existed in these dogs long before Cajun rules came into play.......yet a trait not really associated with Bulldogs.

 

Just something to think about.

 

Sorry Gnasher, completely wrong.

 

 

As for those who say they can see terrier influences in bulldogs ?

How ?

If they mean physically do they mean the head, 4 legs and a tail ?

If they mean temperament, then that baffles me too.

If you're saying that the bulldog has that do or die attitude that a terrier has ,just maybe the bulldog had that before already.

Do bulldogs hunt like terriers ?

Do they have a desire to go to ground ? (Mind you a friend of mine lost one to ground once, Eagla RIP.)

Can you hunt several bulldogs together ?

Sorry but to compare a proper bulldog to a proper working terrier is like comparing a Thoroughbred racehorse to a pit pony.

 

Let me put it this way.

If you owned a Ferrari and wanted to make it faster.

Would you take out it's engine and replace it with a Landrover engine ?

 

So where do you believe the infusion of gameness came from that wasnt needed by bulldogs before ?..........Im of the belief that to understand pit dogs you have to understand gameness........and to understand gameness you have to understand what makes it different to courage and tenacity and many of the other words used in gamedog circles.......so my question to you is where do you feel the trait of gameness came from within the American Pit Bull Terrier ?........i can feel the old nurture versus nature debate brewing up here

[DogFox123 1,379]

 

 

 

IMO the dogs that left these shores many years ago and eventually became the APBT in the states had no terrier blood whatsoever in them.

Think about it for a second.

The terrier of those days were mostly curs (same as today) that were used with no locator to bolt or locate their quarry using their voice.

NOW, what would such blood add to a dog that's job was completely different ?

Yes, when the rat pits were flourishing a smaller dog was needed and when bull and bear baiting was common a bigger heavier dog was needed but the dogs that went to America were tested on each other and the best was put to the best. The first breed ever recognised by the United Kennel Club in America was the APBT such was it's purity. IMO he and the greyhound are the most pure bred breeds there are.

American dog men have always labeled them Bulldogs but in no way have any of them ever compared them to the breed now known as the Olde English Bulldog, a breed that was in fact extinct and resurrected the same as the Irish Wolfhounds.

Up until only a few decades ago they were known as Bulldogs, Am Staffs, Pit Bulls,Pit Bulldogs and American Pit Bull Terriers. The purists have always hated the word "terrier" being in the name.

Joe Corvino, one of the fathers of the modern APBT used to call them American Staffords in his adds but bulldogs when he spoke of them.

 

I've no time for fighting sports but love the breed and it's history and the APBT is a classic example of how a breed can be destroyed by the peddlers.

 

Thats interesting.....

 

If im not wrong the Cajun rules were brought out in order to stop a dog needing to scratch into a dead dog to obtain victory.......so if the sole objective was the first dog to kill or inflict as much damage on the opponent as possible is the winner then where is the need for gameness ?......which as we know was a trait that existed in these dogs long before Cajun rules came into play.......yet a trait not really associated with Bulldogs.

 

Just something to think about.

Sorry Gnasher, completely wrong.

 

 

As for those who say they can see terrier influences in bulldogs ?

How ?

If they mean physically do they mean the head, 4 legs and a tail ?

If they mean temperament, then that baffles me too.

If you're saying that the bulldog has that do or die attitude that a terrier has ,just maybe the bulldog had that before already.

Do bulldogs hunt like terriers ?

Do they have a desire to go to ground ? (Mind you a friend of mine lost one to ground once, Eagla RIP.)

Can you hunt several bulldogs together ?

Sorry but to compare a proper bulldog to a proper working terrier is like comparing a Thoroughbred racehorse to a pit pony.

 

Let me put it this way.

If you owned a Ferrari and wanted to make it faster.

Would you take out it's engine and replace it with a Landrover engine ?

So where do you believe the infusion of gameness came from that wasnt needed by bulldogs before ?..........Im of the belief that to understand pit dogs you have to understand gameness........and to understand gameness you have to understand what makes it different to courage and tenacity and many of the other words used in gamedog circles.......so my question to you is where do you feel the trait of gameness came from within the American Pit Bull Terrier ?........i can feel the old nurture versus nature debate brewing up here

Well in some Standards of the APBT it states the Terrier brought the Gameness to the mix, but the million dollar question is where did the Gameness come from in the first place because it challenges the laws of nature...

[BGD 6,436]

Personally I think you can trace gameness back to the old war dogs and big game hunters, what became the modern mastiff and bulldog.

 

That's not to say gameness wasn't also present in terriers, developed separately to the mastiffs/bulldogs. Convergent evolution they call it in wild animals. Two animals that develop the same traits with no direct influence on each other.