Is The Apbt The True Bulldog Or A Terrier Cross?

[Bolero 67]

On 15/08/2015 at 03:43, Lusitano said:

Neil Cooney ive plenty of knowledge on the breed and have owned several examples over the years... By Me calling the pit bull a mongrel I am merely pointing out the fact that several breeds went into the mix and this shows in the different types we have today. Like the bulldog of old I would say that the pit bull is more a function than a breed.

I mean it’s not like a good amount of this stuff was written and documented or anything like that. And as for different types as you say i wouldn’t really say that’s accurate. These dogs were always bred for performance first right from the very beginning yes there are variations in structure but they all have a similar overall appearance. I’ve worked and bred these dogs for the last 17 years as did my father and grandfather and both used there dog for the purpose they were bred for. My grandfather was good friends with Tudor they both lived in Oklahoma up until my grandfather moved the family he was in his mid 30!”’s at the time and settled in Massachusetts. Which allowed to become close with Lou Colby. I can tell you that neither Lou, his father or Earl definitely didn’t breed non of the junk you mentioned into the dogs. I’m sure a couple guys probably did some stupid like that but I really doubt anything worth a damn came from it. I was able to read a lot of old letters and hand written pedigree because of my relationship with Lou and some stuff Earl had give my grandfather stuff that ain’t in the books about the breed and from the stuff read and saw there was a pretty clear path from the pitdogs of the first bull and terrier crosses all the way to the American pit bull terrier. You can look at pictures of the earliest pitdogs and see dogs from today that look just like that. Now I’m talking about the game bred American pit bull terrier, bulldogs not the dogs bred for show ring. And not much has changed if anything at all in the dogs who are still kept by dog men. Also your right the dogs were called bulldogs because of its function not as breed but it the same thing with those billiard that was because of being bred for a very specific function a general overall appearance developed. 

[Bolero 67]

On 03/07/2020 at 09:44, Greb147 said:

Of course they do but the trait of gameness must have been there somewhere in the wolf. Just like any breed of dog certain individuals are gamer than others. 

As far as I can tell it’s like you said can’t get something that wasn’t there to begin with. In genetics there’s a term I can think of it for the life of me but how it works is the dogs who became known for gameness so the bulldog the one used for bull baiting. Yes I know some people for whatever reason see why they needs to be game and weren’t where the APBT got gameness from that ridiculous to think that but I digress. So you would start out with dogs who say we’re very willing to engage with any animal the size didn’t bother them and then by choosing the dogs who had the highest degree of gameness out of that firs group to selected and with each new generation the degrees or level whatever you want call it would increase now I have no clue by how much it would increase but eventually at some point due to choosing the dogs that the gameness increased the most a point would be reached to the highest degree which the dog who is dead game. I’m definitely not saying I’m correct it’s just my best guess form what I know about  genetics and behavior and selection. I think i just remembered what it’s called pretty sure the word is Additive which i think means increasing the trait you want with each generation by doing what i explained above 

[Bolero 67]

On 30/06/2020 at 14:20, Greb147 said:

"The Oklahoma Kid."

In 1951 after near 100 years of breeding Gamedogs in the USA the breeding reached a peak. In Arizona a male named Bouncer was bred to a female called Bambi by a man called Ed Ritcheson. In the litter was a red dog with a deep blue black nose. This dog was bred from the core of American bred Gamedogs, he was raised and named by a black man from a pup. This dog was named Dibo, in the heart of Africa the word Dibo means Devil. 

 

In his pedigree were over 100 years of American bred Gamedogs that had been proven in the pit, all his close family were the gamest bred in the world. Dibo and his close family was the product of this American breeding, his bloodline showed all the areas of the USA. The American Gamedogs in Dibo’s pedigree were dogs that proved their gameness in the core of the Gamedog game in America. These Gamedogs came into our nation near the mid 1800’s from Europe. 

 

Some of the Gamedogs that were brought into our nation were of outcross breeding. When different pure families in England, Ireland, and Scotland were bred together in their nations, then imported into our nation and bred with either a pure or cross bred family, that were being “matched” into one another to prove which were the gamest families. Men like Cockney Charlie Lloyd imported pure family breeding, and pure English breeding and cross bred it with the English breeding here in our nation. These men match few dogs, but proved their breeding was of the gamest bred. 

 

In the days of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s Con Feeley who matched more dogs than any man in his time became the breeder of the different outcross English families that had been bred here in the USA, Con bred a family of dogs from what he proved were the games dogs bred in the USA in his time. F.G. Henry imported some English red dogs and crossed them with the proven family of the Con Feeleys. 

 

In the same days the English dogs were being matched, proven and bred, on the northern coast of our nation. The Irish families were being done the same way in the area of the east coast. J.P. Colby was a man that bred together different pure Irish game families with the Irish outcrosses that was being crossed together on the east coast. 

 

A number of different men matched and proved the gameness of the breeding that were being bred at the core of the game. In the late 1800’s and early 1900’s the Irish dogs of outcross breeding, the ones that were proving themselves as the gamest bred, made it to Texas in the yard of Bill Shipley. Bill imported a pure Irish family from Ireland and crossed it with the crossbred family that had been bred in the USA 

 

In the early 1900’s the next name to fill the shoes of the number one Gamedog man of his time, and only a few men here in this new nation had wore these shoes, the last was Con Feeley from Illinois. 

 

But in 1908 Earl Tudor showed up in Oklahoma from Kentucky. Earl matched more dogs and proved his understanding of gameness more than any man in his time. He bred together the families of F.G. Henry to the families of Con Feeley. In the late 1930’s and early 1940’s Earl was proving his breeding the gamest bred. At that time he crossed the dogs of the purest that had been proven of the English breeding to the Irish families of Bill Shipley, 200 miles from him in Texas. This brought together the games dogs bred from the north and the gamest dogs bred from the East to near the center of the USA In the days of Earl Tudor when he proved his breeding the gamest bred, dogs from his breeding were being bred in most the States in the USA, this was in the 1940’s. In the early 1950’s Earl Tudor was in Arizona looking at the breeding of the Gamedogs, when he was taken to see the dog Dibo. 

 

Earl liked very much what he saw, and took the dog back to Oklahoma with him. At first he called this red dog Runt, but later he changed his name back to Dibo. Earl bred Dibo to a number of females bred from his family of dogs. In the late 1950’s and early 1960’s Earl began to bring together a family of dogs breeding them pure. His dogs were different than any of the different families being bred in the USA. The one’s from his families were the ones at the core with most all the other breeding in the USA being of outcross breeding from Earl’s yard. 

 

In the years of early 1960’s to the early 1970’s Earl bred his understanding of 'American Gamedogs' into a family of dogs that all looked alike 

 

In the early 1960’s to the late 1970’s we proved the gameness of more American Gamedogs than any man of our time at the core of the game (before the game became against the law).

 

Today in the early 1980’s society around the world is seeking the gamest family of dogs bred in the world. Here in Texas on a mountain top beside a long creek we have bred from the core a family of very pure American gamebred dogs. 

 

In the last number of years we have bred only a small number of dogs from this family. At this time when a number of nations are seeking the gamest family of dogs bred, it being the American Gamedog, it being proven in a number of nations matched into the different men’s understanding of gameness. 

 

At this same time Paul Harvey a newsman said, “in a nation today, man is trying to prove a dog has a spirit and soul that goes to heaven". I am an outcross bred Texas man that has spent over 20 years looking into the insides of dogs, I am a believer the dogs house the spirit and soul of the devil, and is becoming man’s best friend. Here in the USA where the people of the most outcross breeding are born, we are the breeders of the gamest dogs bred in the world. Here in Texas where the most outcross bred people in the USA are raised, we breed a game family of American Gamedogs to the point of gameness that that only 3 kinds of people can bear to be around them. 

 

Those three kinds of people are people that feed them, and people like a saint, are a person with the faith of the devil himself. The ones like the saint, the dogs will be scared of, and show fight along with the jump in his lap and lick him all over his face. But when a man of little faith looks eye to eye with this kind of gamebred dog, the man become within great danger of this dog. But the dog will be scared of the ones more like saints and turn their heads away from them. I have watched many of these game bred dogs as they are looked in the eye of by a number of men we have met in our time with these dogs. I have looked also at the men when hey do the looking. 

 

This story I write you seeker of gamedogs comes from my understanding of the research we have involved ourselves with in over the last near 25 years, of Gamedogs and Gamemen who I have been a lover of both. In my eyes the gamest man ever bred was our Lord Jesus. He being an outcross bred man of God and mankind and took his death on the cross other than tell one little lie. That is the faith and spirit of a gameman. 

 

One fall morning at sunrise in the year of 1961 we met Earl Tudor at his home in Oklahoma. We had with us a nice bred female bred from his family of dogs. We came to meet him and talk to him about breeding the female. We did a lot of talking and bred the female, then drove the near 250 miles back home in Texas. 

 

Within the next number of years we made the trip to Earl’s place many times. On one trip I remember sitting on a couch with Earl as he had bad eyes and always wanted me to sit close so he could look me in the eyes when we talked. We most always talked about breeding, as we sat talking, trying to stare each other down. We had our own ways of understanding conditions and taught each other what we had done, and were doing. 

 

But when it came time to talk about breeding I only asked questions. I remember one time Earl who was in his mid 60’s about that time, broke down in tears and cried like a bay as he told me, “these damn so called friends of one dog deal or another who steal the credit of every dog bred, never gave me one damn bit of credit for my dogs.” 

 

Then he would wipe the tears from his eyes, put his glasses back on, get in my face and say; "it’s all in the breeding Don, it’s all in the breeding.” Then he would tell dogs and others, he would tell me about the breeding of those dogs as the pure ones, the family bred dogs, not the cross ones, the pure ones. Then I would say Earl, what was the best ones that you had, he would cock his head, and his wife Flo would speak up and say, “the best dogs Earl had were the old Henry dogs, you never lost a match with a Henry dog did you Earl???”, and Earl with a smile on his face would say; “You’re right Flo, the dogs of old man Henry’s family were the red eyed dogs and were game to the core.” 

 

He would say to me, “The eyes were as red as a coon’s eyes, they had a big mouth with a lot of muscle in the head, most were black, but some were white, and some were red rednose dogs.” 

 

He said all the Henry dogs could bite hard and were very wild to work and handle. And like the preacher man from Oklahoma he would scream like a cat in the middle of the night, get down on the floor on his knees and say they were deep game dogs, bred of the English breeding. I set there on the couch like a red headed stranger thinking don’t cross him, don’t boss him, he’s wild in his sorrow he’s ridden and hidden his pain. He would then get in his place and say, “they were good ones, Don.” 

 

He was like a wild black stallion, and his wife, Flo, was as frail as a bay. His love for the gamedogs was like a mountain so big, and for hours we set and talked on and on. He would speak up like the bright lights of Denver of 10 thousand jewels in the sky when he talked, looking me straight in the eyes. He said, “if only I could call back the days when it was nobody’s business where you’re going, or where you come from.” Then, he would tell me about Dibo, Demon, Black Jack Jr. and his sire and dam. 

 

He would say to me, “Don, in the 20’s here in Oklahoma times were hard to survive, we fought dogs and cocks to survive. In the 30’s the men still took an Indian squaw anytime they cared for one. Then in the days the winds came and blowed for 7 years it took two feet, to three feet of top soil from the farm land of the Irish race of people. And in those days when the Irish race in Oklahoma could not survive in the 'grapes of wrath' they picked up and moved to California to become the farmers of the world. 

 

In those days we had three pits on our place, we fought cocks and a few dogs each week for a number of years. He would then tell me, he had been shot 6 different times by 6 different men, and never once went to the hospital, the doctor came to his house. Once his brother-in-law shot him and they never called the doctor, as Flo dressed the hole where it went in, and the hole where it came out. 

 

He said; “In those days we kept 7 dogs close to ready at all times, they were matched in one week’s time.” He said, "I would run in the fields with my dogs, in those days, there were no fences to cross just open land." 

 

He said; "We had a mound built of sand with a chair that turned all the way around. We kept 7 dogs staked around the chair, I had a long fishing pole with a tail tied on a line. We would go from dog to dog for two or three with one working while the others worked the coontail." 

 

Earl then said, "we never had a treadmill in those days, if we had one we wouldn’t use it. The catmill was the best to work a dog on", and I would say, “yes Earl I know, I have one in my yard,” and then he’d look me in the eyes and say, "tell me the way you work ‘em", and I would start to talk telling him each and every thing we did as his eyes started to shine like saying, stay a little longer. 

 

As I talked on he would move quick with his head high saying that’s right that’s right. And as the stories were told over the years on his couch, we always ended in talking about breeding, as he would say; “The Irish dogs were also deep game dogs.” He would tell me about the different pure breeding of the different families. Then, the tears would come with shakes, and the cry of agony as he looked me in the eyes and said, “these damn so called friends never gave me one bit of credit for my family of dogs, those big shots Shipley and Feeley they got all the credit. Earl always called Bill Shipley the 'Big Shot'. 

 

He sent his female Flash with a black man to be bred to Red Jerry. He would tell his black friend just what the dog looked like to breed the female to. He would then laugh like and angel flying too close to the ground, he would speak up and say, it was the English dogs Don, you can hear these know it alls talk about the Irish dogs and they were good ones, but the English dogs was where it was at. Red eyed dogs as red as a ruby. Wild to go very hot dogs that would eat up a person, and Flo would speak up and say, “Lord yes,” as she pulled up her long cotton dress to her knees and pulled her knee socks down to her ankles to show her scars from dog bites. Earl then laughed and said Flo got bit two or three times trying to part some that would break loose when I weren’t here. 

 

I got where I told her to stay in the house and let them fight to the death. So she don’t get bit no more. She would speak up and say; Phyllis those Henry dogs had a big mouth and you had to beat them in the head with a piece of iron to get them to turn loose. Earl would say, “Ya’ll she’s telling you the truth, she’d have a iron bar or hammer in her hand and if one got on her she’d beat it in the head and kill it". 

 

Then he would say she’s a sweet little old thing ain’t she, I don’t know how I could have ever made it without her. Flo was a slip 5 ft. 3 inch. small woman of near 90 lbs. Earl being a small man, in his prime 117 lbs. with gloves on. He said he would have been a fighter if he had not got shot in the belly one time. As he said Bert was the stronger fighter of us two, but I was like the sun from over the mountain with a sunlight that dances on your skin, but Bert he did me wrong and I never him. And we would talk on about breeding. Earl carried the famous name of Tudor, the famous kings who went by the names of Henry the First, and so on, in Europe. 

 

In the 1400’s in England the way was open for the only surviving Lancastrian with strength to take and keep the throne. Henry Tudor was a descendent of John Tudor of Gaunt. He had spent half his life in Wales, the rest on the Continent. Urged to intervene, he found Welsh forces eager to join him when he landed at Milford Haven, and led them on into England. King Richard met them outside Market Bosworth, near Leicester, on 22nd of August 1485. The first battle was the gamebred wardogs. The royal army was larger but fought with less conviction. Many nolles on whom Richard was relying had already decided to defect. Richard himself fought bravely, but was accorded little respect for this after his death. The crown of England found in a bush was placed on Henry Tudor's head, and the corpse of the dead king was stripped naked, tossed across a horse, and carried unceremoniously to Leicester. The last of the Plantagenets was gone. The stage was set for the Tudors. The mark of the Tudors were the dog and the dragon. 

 

Earl never told me he was from the English Tudor family, but he had the same little beadie eyes as the pictures of the Tudors of England. He had the courage of a line of kings that would get in your face the last days of his life that came in 1977. Earl became a hard man to be around the last year or two of his life from the hate he had within, he kept a pistol in his pocket from sunup to sundown, and did a lot of crying the last years of his life. He told me stories about bad men he knew who always stopped and visited him as they came through east of the Texas Panhandle in western Oklahoma where the rocks peer out of the ground in rows as if they had been planted. Poor land that at this time is too poor to grow weeds. He told me about a time he spent in court as they tried him for murder. He told me stories about life and gamedogs that can only be told in a book. 

 

Earl Tudor was a man that liked all of us that kept only two kinds of dogs. Those he liked, and those given to him by a friend. He started breeding his family of dogs in 1908 after being around them all his boyhood life. 

 

His first dog to match was a Henry bred dog called Jack Swift. He bred him to a Henry bitch called Black Star and produced a dog called Judge, and he went to trial for 60 years proving his value of truth and understanding of breeding to be unbeatable over the years. It was like a whiskey river that never went dry in most of Earl’s grown life. 

 

He was the town bootlegger and his friend Jim Williams was the law. Jim always bred his females at Earl’s house and it was Jim Williams who led Earl’s last stud dog out of his yard. Jim and Earl lived 19 miles from south to north from one another, on the same road. They were just another sample of two friends that had come to the point of hating each other from their many dog deals, but were friends to the end of them both. 

 

Earl would say of Jim, “that no good old popper hanging dogpeddler” and Jim would say “I don’t know why Earl talks to bad of me.” Jim could come and deal dogs with Earl all his life and he did. Earl would say about his life as a bootlegger and the law, that he never gave as much as a cigarette to, and he was never busted in his many years. And Jim he would tell how he would call Earl and tell him to close shop till the state men left town, each time the state men came to town to try and bust a bootlegger. 

 

Earl knew people like Pretty Boy Floyd, Baby Face Nelson, Frank Nash who was raised just a few miles from Earls in what was then called the Bad Land of Oklahoma when survival of life was hard, but like a Oklahoma preacher, Earl climbed high on his mountain and screamed like a cat, after walking from Kentucky when a young boy rode in a wagon pulled by oxen. But like a red headed stranger that rode into red rock on a black stallion he made his mark in the world of life and Gamedogs. And like he said you can’t hang a man for killing a woman who’s stealing your horse. And out on the edge of life is where Earl lived in the Badlands of Oklahoma. He told me one time he won 24 matches in 24 months, he said; “Hell there ain’t nobody that can win 24 straight fair, not even me", as he would laugh, and give me a fake right and left to the jaw. 

 

He was like the sun from over the mountain top dancing on your skin. And like a light house that stands alone Earl traveled down the roads of life in and around Oklahoma. At one time he had over 100 Gamedogs and 200 cocks. He made his own cock spears from bed springs. But the Gamedogs was his love from the hate he had within of men. 

 

The game we as men play when seeking the gamest dogs bred, is in life as seeking t hat true friend, after the man deals in life where men are having a hard time to survive in land that is called 'bad'. 

 

As Earl cried out in pain from his butchered body as he lived one day at a time. He told me so many stories with so many different dogs names, we talked for days. He lived by the graveyard where his folks lay to their amazing grace, as he too lay there to rest. But at the time of God’s grace we will all arise and be counted for, as I can sometime hear his voice and spirit saying “go for it Don.” Go for it.” 

 

It was like take this job and shove it I’ll make it my way and he did, but I tell you for sure his last years were as hard as any I have seen. He told me, he said Don; “If a man told me could win over my dogs I would tell him I would beat him within so much time and he did.” 

 

He told me; “one time we were matched into the 'Big Shot'. Shipley and his friends came down with an old timer a month before he died of old age. His name was Frumble of Arkansas. He was a good old man, I told him after the dogs met, bet your money it don’t go 20 minutes. And at 18 minutes the 'Big Shot’s' dog fell dead in the center of the pit, and old man Frumble was the only man there that seen what I did, he shaked my hand and told me how glad he was to get to meet the 'Oklahoma Kid' before he died, he just hugged my neck and left, and sad I seen what you did, I seen. 

 

And Earl just laughed and said he was one hell of a man he was, one hell of a man. He then stood up then he set back down. And told me each time we visited many dog stories of too many different dog names to tell about at this time. Earl bred the Henry dogs as pure as he could an crossed it with the Feeley and Shipley families from his understanding of what he had seen in the different matches of his life. 

 

Dibo was a dog bred of 41 years of Earl’s life. In the pedigree of Dibo for 8 generations the three men whose names show up the most, was Earl Tudor of Oklahoma 39 times, Con Feeley of Illinois, 36 times, Bill Shipley of Texas, 24 times. Compared to those three men the others in the pedigree of Dibo were gamedog feeders. Those three men were at the Core of the game where only the truth was. The female Gordon's Red Lady was an American bred female where Tudor's name showed up 38 times in her pedigree. When Earl bred Dibo to Red Lady his name showed in their offsprings Jeff, Spike, & Buck 77 times. In the pedigree of Black Widow, Earl Tudors name shows 69 times. When he bred Spike to Black Widow his name showed in the pedigree of Baby 146 times. He thenbred Spikes brother Jeff to Baby, and produced Nigger, his last and purest family bred stud dog. His name appeared in Nigger’s pedigree 223 times. He then bred Nigger to his sister and produced one lone female called Spookie, and his name appeared in her pedigree 446 times. Those two American Gamedogs were the purest bred of Earl Tudors understanding of the game he had played near 67 years of his life. And at this time after he is dead and gone there is still some of his so called friends trying to take his credit of breeding. 

 

Mayfield wrote that so you can be sure it’s a lot of utter crap mixed with a little bit nonsense and a dash of not true. 
 

when it can to putting one in shape Don was definitely ahead of his time but the man never prose a single dog worth a damn.

[Bolero 67]

On 25/10/2015 at 17:20, gnasher16 said:

A Lurcher may have 2/3/4/5 different breeds involved in its make up.....a bull terrier has 2......would you class the Apbt as a cross breed ?.......you could create a tight family gene pool within 4 or 5 generations but for it to consistently produce itself on totally unrelated dogs could take a lifetime......what you couldnt do over a lifetime though is just continually keep inbreeding so fresh blood must be brought in without risking losing what you already have hence breeders have been so selective about the cross they make trying to keep some form of shared heritage......if you look at certain bulldog peds you can clearly see the reasoning to the breedings made.....hybrid vigour doesnt always work out for the better and thats the risk in crossing dogs but when it does work out for the better it can produce some pretty awesome animals as has been proven.

Nothing wrong with a good outcross but when looking at the top dogs of the breed line breeding and even inbreeding was what produced them. Dblgrch Tornado, Zebo, Happy jack, both Grch banjo and his sister bb red, chinaman, Nigerino. Lots more just don’t want to keep posting 

[Bolero 67]

On 26/10/2015 at 06:53, DogFox123 said:

The working APBT is a "type" not a breed IMO....

That’s all fine and dandy as everyone has opinions on things but the American pit bull terrier being an actual breed of dog would be what one would call a fact and in this one that has been agreed upon. So to say in your opinion it’s not a breed it’s a type is kinda like saying in you opinion the earth is flat when all evidence points to the contrary. I would even argue that it is one of the most well documented and possible accurate in terms of ancestry now obviously I’m not dumb enough to think that some of these good ole boys didn’t tell a few tales in few dogs pedigrees I actually know foe a fact the done hung few here and there put I still stand by what i said since there ain’t and dog breed that  people lying about how dogs bred don’t happen 

[Greyman 28,042]

I thought they were called bull and terrier because they were a cross between the two in years gone by, but as all dogs are decended from wild canids like wolves then there are really no pure bred strains just man made strains p, s only a passing interest and definitely not an expert though I,m quite fancying a big old bull type as my last dog to see me through old age

[gnipper 6,411]

Are you going to resurrect every ancient thread involving bull terriers Bolero?

[Bolero 67]

2 minutes ago, gnipper said:

Are you going to resurrect every ancient thread involving bull terriers Bolero?

I’m not sure. Haven’t made a decision yet. Seems that you could very easily not go to a thread that you weren’t interested in reading the post. That’s possible correct? 
seems like a relatively simple thing do i would imagine

[Astanley 11,564]

I'm enjoying your input Bolero 

[Greb147 6,809]

2 hours ago, Greyman said:

I thought they were called bull and terrier because they were a cross between the two in years gone by, but as all dogs are decended from wild canids like wolves then there are really no pure bred strains just man made strains p, s only a passing interest and definitely not an expert though I,m quite fancying a big old bull type as my last dog to see me through old age

That's the general idea but it's clear it was never a half and half breeding like some historians claim.