Is The Apbt The True Bulldog Or A Terrier Cross?

[Greb147 6,809]

12 minutes ago, Blackmag said:

It's a interesting and good thread to be fair have you owned and worked this type gred 

The above AB was my cousins, he didn't do much with it but it was a powerful dog and had lots of drive and finish  when he did try him out. 

It would pull shrubs and small trees out the ground by the roots and on walks would randomly jump up and lock on to branches and just hang off them.

A shame you can't get the proper work for them over here, a few lads local to me had some AB/Greyhound lurchers. 

They didn't reinvent the wheel but were decent on bambi. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Greb147

[keepdiggin 9,559]

Can't remember them in the 90s tbh

[Greb147 6,809]

2 minutes ago, keepdiggin said:

Can't remember them in the 90s tbh

Just to be clear these dogs are not to be confused with the early bulldog types that worked on farms and such in the south during the 1800's. The modern animals are almost certainly all a type of the recreated dogs. 

[JMc 226]

From what I’ve read/heard in interviews with others interested in there history there has always been a wide size scale.Dogs prior to bullbaiting ban in 1835 were big,to do the job,after the ban people with the breed went into dogfighting and needed to be off the radar so it was easier to keep smaller dogs as the basements became the new arenas.Irish and English staffs that went over,don’t know the dates,late 1800,s not sure?around then,also brought the size down a little stateside,those that remained in Ireland/England remained Staffordshire’s.A 1927 copy of Pit News advertises dogs for sale from 18-72 pounds,the southern states had breeders that liked bigger dogs as they were still using them as catch dogs on boars.Photo of Colbys Galtie who was around 20lb mark.A lot of info out there,saw the Richard Stratton interview like I said before,who believes Boston Terriers were originally from small Pitbulls.

[JMc 226]

I think when you look at these old images it’s easy to see why some say the Apbt is the original Bulldog and why some still refer to it as the Bulldog.All the dogs have a descent bit of muzzle,the stuff with with the nose pushed back was the beginning of the show stuff that goes all the way to the the modern British bulldog.Also as we all know most breeds who’s muzzle has been dramatically shortened can’t get round the block let alone have the wind to bring a bull down,so I go with modern gamebred types being the original bulldog,the squashed muzzle bulldog being a show offshoot.

atb J

[Greb147 6,809]

1 hour ago, JMc said:

From what I’ve read/heard in interviews with others interested in there history there has always been a wide size scale.Dogs prior to bullbaiting ban in 1835 were big,to do the job,after the ban people with the breed went into dogfighting and needed to be off the radar so it was easier to keep smaller dogs as the basements became the new arenas.Irish and English staffs that went over,don’t know the dates,late 1800,s not sure?around then,also brought the size down a little stateside,those that remained in Ireland/England remained Staffordshire’s.A 1927 copy of Pit News advertises dogs for sale from 18-72 pounds,the southern states had breeders that liked bigger dogs as they were still using them as catch dogs on boars.Photo of Colbys Galtie who was around 20lb mark.A lot of info out there,saw the Richard Stratton interview like I said before,who believes Boston Terriers were originally from small Pitbulls.

That just seems all too close convenient for me, the original Bulldog wasn't a massive animal. It fell within the range of the APBT. 

I don't think any dog that could tackle bulls and other wild animals would be slow and unexciting to watch like they were portrayed to be. 

I agree that Bull types were almost certainly crossed with terriers and that created the APBT but I think the terriers used possibly brought more to the table than agility and speed, I mean why would you pollute game dogs with cur dogs? 

 

Stratton mentioned that William J. Lightner claimed his father said there was APBT's in the States before the civil war. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Greb147

[Greb147 6,809]

16 minutes ago, JMc said:

I think when you look at these old images it’s easy to see why some say the Apbt is the original Bulldog and why some still refer to it as the Bulldog.All the dogs have a descent bit of muzzle,the stuff with with the nose pushed back was the beginning of the show stuff that goes all the way to the the modern British bulldog.Also as we all know most breeds who’s muzzle has been dramatically shortened can’t get round the block let alone have the wind to bring a bull down,so I go with modern gamebred types being the original bulldog,the squashed muzzle bulldog being a show offshoot.

atb J

This one thing that does back up this idea is that the APBT is the gamest dog breed in the world and it is the one that was chosen to carry out the most brutal and unforgiving sport in the world. 

Surely this is a strong indicator that this was the original breed that was chosen to carry out the most difficult of tasks centuries ago? 

If there were more capable breeds then it would not sit at the top of it's chosen field. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Greb147

[JMc 226]

Hello Greb,where in your mind are the bulldogs coming from,evolutionary wise,from old mollossar types?I haven’t gone that far back yet?And then I would probably ask you what Terriers do you believe are going in to this mix,and where they from?I like things neat and tidy mate so I’m happy to believe Gamebred Bulldogs(Apbt) the original bulldog,are down from athletic mollosar type dogs?

atb J

[Francie 6,368]

This is an interesting chat lads, wonder how far yee could go back an see? Where the bull originated, cool stuff. 

[Greb147 6,809]

11 hours ago, JMc said:

Hello Greb,where in your mind are the bulldogs coming from,evolutionary wise,from old mollossar types?I haven’t gone that far back yet?And then I would probably ask you what Terriers do you believe are going in to this mix,and where they from?I like things neat and tidy mate so I’m happy to believe Gamebred Bulldogs(Apbt) the original bulldog,are down from athletic mollosar type dogs?

atb J

I haven't really looked that far back myself but didn't Bulldog originate from the Alaunt or Mastiff types? 

Speaking of which terriers were used, not entirely sure tbh but take a look at this.

This is  a cross between a Bulldog & Manchester Terrier, look how it resembles the APBT. 

I'm still of the idea that terrier was used and different lines and different percentages of terrier blood in them. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Greb147

[JMc 226]

It is one of those rabbit holes that you can get deep into,seen some posts online from people with serious studies on this breed,rich history this breed,I heard that about William Lightners grandad having the dogs we recognise still today before the American Civil war,I’ve read a lot and forgotten half of it but I believe it was the Lightners that started the red nose strain,there was also something about his original dogs being pure white!Banging in about the small dogs Jack Burke’s strain that features heavily in the Colbys foundation dogs had a 14lb dog!!Maurice Carver said a bulldog is not really a bulldog without some Colby in it.Again not from any experience but what I’ve read,modern pure Colby owners say some of there stuff is still game,but is behind in ability today for the square,so on that assumption would get wrecked,but still gamely go forward.
atb J

[keepdiggin 9,559]

2 hours ago, Greb147 said:

I haven't really looked that far back myself but didn't Bulldog originate from the Alaunt or Mastiff types? 

Speaking of which terriers were used, not entirely sure tbh but take a look at this.

This is  a cross between a Bulldog & Manchester Terrier, look how it resembles the APBT. 

I'm still of the idea that terrier was used and different lines and different percentages of terrier blood in them. 

Safe to say they new dogs better in them days...

[Greb147 6,809]

2 hours ago, JMc said:

It is one of those rabbit holes that you can get deep into,seen some posts online from people with serious studies on this breed,rich history this breed,I heard that about William Lightners grandad having the dogs we recognise still today before the American Civil war,I’ve read a lot and forgotten half of it but I believe it was the Lightners that started the red nose strain,there was also something about his original dogs being pure white!Banging in about the small dogs Jack Burke’s strain that features heavily in the Colbys foundation dogs had a 14lb dog!!Maurice Carver said a bulldog is not really a bulldog without some Colby in it.Again not from any experience but what I’ve read,modern pure Colby owners say some of there stuff is still game,but is behind in ability today for the square,so on that assumption would get wrecked,but still gamely go forward.
atb J

It's a fascinating subject to me but it can fry your head the deeper you go.

At the end of the day the history of the dogs is a very interesting subject but it doesn't really change anything, the breed doesn't care if it's the original Bulldog or a terrier cross. 

I still go along with the theory  that terrier blood was added and the percentage varied with different lines. 

I believe that the terriers must have added more to the mix than just speed and agility, I mean why the hell would you cross a game dog with a cur if you risked losing the one quality that set them apart from other breeds? 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Greb147

[JMc 226]

Yeah definitely,they were certainly more patient,everything has to be point and shoot now,the old timers didn’t even have t.v interfering with there time.

[JMc 226]

Great read,knowledge!atb