South hams hunter 8,934 Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 That was my understanding of it brindle. correct me if Im wrong, thought battle cross was a nickname for certain lines crossed? Or can it be any two crossed lines? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,436 Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 Battle cross to me means crossing two totally unrelated lines to make a top box dog that probably won't be a producer. That's the problem with the dog game though isn't, all these terms mean different things to different people depending on the circles they move in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chris87 297 Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 Really interesting stuff lads, cheers and keep it coming i could read this stuff all day and night 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dare 1,103 Posted October 26, 2015 Report Share Posted October 26, 2015 Heard a good story about nikki once when i asked someone some of the best dogs his seen. Ashame she wasnt able to produce, was down to the juice wasnt it? Dunno why that comes to mind could be completely wrong. I know sod all about breeding being honest just a subject i find interesting as if their was a right way everyone would breed with the same idea in mind. Its interesting just as a subject goes to hear different opinions and ideas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,467 Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Hybrid vigour is a term used in the dog game when someone strikes it lucky on a cross breed...these pitbull threads always tend to be a bit blind leading the blind I couldnt disagree more strongly......to say that ace calibre dogs such as gr ch Mayday or infact closer to home an ace calibre dog like gr ch Nikki was produced via " a lucky strike " to me is an insult......yes there will of course be luck involved in any performance breeding but breeding is about stacking the odds in your favour and if you think men who have dedicated years to producing good dogs did so on the toss of a coin......i couldnt agree. Now im not a professor of pedigrees doing a degree on genetics at the university of gamedogology...but even i know a Hybrid is a cross of two similar species...within dogs its a cross of two breeds of dogs...the often used example being CH Stormer who was EBTXSBT..as he was a game individual who was far superior to his parents...people claim this as hybrid vigour...but if you was to repeat the breeding 100 times you probably wouldnt get the same result...thats why i said 'striking it lucky'...GrCh Nikki was a pure bred APBT she was not a hybrid...she was a BATTLE CROSS...bred from game proven APBTs of unrelated bloodlines...an example of a successful hybrid pit bitch would be rfc's GrCh Jenny...who had a lot of stafford blood on the bottom of her ped So you only class a hybrid as a cross of 2 different breeds......of the same species ?......to most people who have bred gamedogs over the years a hybrid is simply 2 totally unrelated strains with no common ancestry......ie....a pure family dog bred to another pure family dog......gr ch Nikki wasnt a hybrid as she had shared ancestry i only used her as an example in response to your comment that ace calibre bulldogs were produced by luck......to me she was bred with plenty of confidence and expectation that the breeding behind her would throw the type of dog that it did.......to me a good breeder will be able to predict within reason the type of animal that will be produced through background knowledge of the way genes fall........theoretically theres no reason why a 5 minute cur couldnt produce great dogs if the breeding is there but of course its just not good breeding practise so through truth and honesty of a pedigree and a little bit of knowledge and understanding these breedings the odds are being stacked in favour and not via a lucky strike.... thats my only point. As regards a " battle cross " to me thats simply a 2/3/4 way cross of dogs bred for performance......gr ch Badger i guess could be called a Reid/Patrick/Mayfield battle cross dog as an example......a cross of this nature as opposed to a cross of 2 pure family dogs requires much more of a " lucky strike " in producing a great dog as its the genetic lottery of where that greatness came from....and of course the chances of that dog producing himself are even more remote. Only my thoughts of course i certainly wouldnt be so arrogant as to call it fact. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKA-BRINDLE 879 Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Hybrid vigour is a term used in the dog game when someone strikes it lucky on a cross breed...these pitbull threads always tend to be a bit blind leading the blind I couldnt disagree more strongly......to say that ace calibre dogs such as gr ch Mayday or infact closer to home an ace calibre dog like gr ch Nikki was produced via " a lucky strike " to me is an insult......yes there will of course be luck involved in any performance breeding but breeding is about stacking the odds in your favour and if you think men who have dedicated years to producing good dogs did so on the toss of a coin......i couldnt agree. Now im not a professor of pedigrees doing a degree on genetics at the university of gamedogology...but even i know a Hybrid is a cross of two similar species...within dogs its a cross of two breeds of dogs...the often used example being CH Stormer who was EBTXSBT..as he was a game individual who was far superior to his parents...people claim this as hybrid vigour...but if you was to repeat the breeding 100 times you probably wouldnt get the same result...thats why i said 'striking it lucky'...GrCh Nikki was a pure bred APBT she was not a hybrid...she was a BATTLE CROSS...bred from game proven APBTs of unrelated bloodlines...an example of a successful hybrid pit bitch would be rfc's GrCh Jenny...who had a lot of stafford blood on the bottom of her ped So you only class a hybrid as a cross of 2 different breeds......of the same species ?......to most people who have bred gamedogs over the years a hybrid is simply 2 totally unrelated strains with no common ancestry......ie....a pure family dog bred to another pure family dog......gr ch Nikki wasnt a hybrid as she had shared ancestry i only used her as an example in response to your comment that ace calibre bulldogs were produced by luck......to me she was bred with plenty of confidence and expectation that the breeding behind her would throw the type of dog that it did.......to me a good breeder will be able to predict within reason the type of animal that will be produced through background knowledge of the way genes fall........theoretically theres no reason why a 5 minute cur couldnt produce great dogs if the breeding is there but of course its just not good breeding practise so through truth and honesty of a pedigree and a little bit of knowledge and understanding these breedings the odds are being stacked in favour and not via a lucky strike.... thats my only point. As regards a " battle cross " to me thats simply a 2/3/4 way cross of dogs bred for performance......gr ch Badger i guess could be called a Reid/Patrick/Mayfield battle cross dog as an example......a cross of this nature as opposed to a cross of 2 pure family dogs requires much more of a " lucky strike " in producing a great dog as its the genetic lottery of where that greatness came from....and of course the chances of that dog producing himself are even more remote. Only my thoughts of course i certainly wouldnt be so arrogant as to call it fact. If you breed a male donkey to a female horse you get a mule...thats a hybrid...breed two donkeys together out of differnt blood lines you get just a donkey...as just about all APBT go back to common ancestors via Dibo or Colby blood...how can a pure bred APBT bred to another pure bred APBT ever be a hybrid?!...see what im saying?...where have i said "ace caliber bulldogs are produced by luck"??...you originally quoted my post about Hybrid vigour...i said that hybrid vigour is a term used when a cross breeder strikes it lucky...but now you agree with me GrCh Nikki wasnt a hybrid!...my opinion is that GrCh Nikkis success had nothing to do with hybrid vigour or anything such thing and more to do with the strenght of the blood on the bottom of the ped...seriously would you class Dann's Gar as an ace caliber bulldog??...you say bred with confidence and expectation...i say producing ace caliber gamedogs out un- game proven stock has an element of luck about it...just my opinion...and no disrespect intended Edited October 30, 2015 by AKA-BRINDLE 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
South hams hunter 8,934 Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I heard gar was actually nothing at all and that a small irish staff won a lot of money from gar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogFox123 1,379 Posted October 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 You here shit about every dog, Jeep was labelled a cur even though he went 3:45 mins against one of the best and won and was one of the best producers ever.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,436 Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 You here shit about every dog, Jeep was labelled a cur even though he went 3:45 mins against one of the best and won and was one of the best producers ever.... So true, for every "famous" box dog you'll be able to find someone with a story about it being a cur or a manbiter Jealous hangers on trying to make a name for themselves off someone elses dog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
South hams hunter 8,934 Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Yh thats true but I heard it from several people that seen it 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOKEL 2,288 Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 The story with gar involved a Wheaton that beat him... Tho it wasn't as simple as that. The bet was he would stop it in a certain time, he took an extra couple of minutes to complete the task so lost the bet... Yokel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,436 Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Yh thats true but I heard it from several people that seen it Wasn't referring to your post really pal just making a general point Quote Link to post Share on other sites
South hams hunter 8,934 Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 That's obviously a different incident yokel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKA-BRINDLE 879 Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 The story with gar involved a Wheaton that beat him... Tho it wasn't as simple as that. The bet was he would stop it in a certain time, he took an extra couple of minutes to complete the task so lost the bet... Yokel Gar's owner boasted his dog could stop any Stafford in 20 minutes...a 30lb Staff was brought over from Ireland to meet Gar in his own back yard...Gar came in at 38lb...he couldnt stop the Staff and lost the bet...this was Gars only match...despite being called out many times...in time his owner went with another line of bulldogs...like i said previously...no disrespect to the dogs mentioned...just discussing the names brought into the thread 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,467 Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) If you breed a male donkey to a female horse you get a mule...thats a hybrid...breed two donkeys together out of differnt blood lines you get just a donkey...as just about all APBT go back to common ancestors via Dibo or Colby blood...how can a pure bred APBT bred to another pure bred APBT ever be a hybrid?!...see what im saying?...where have i said "ace caliber bulldogs are produced by luck"??...you originally quoted my post about Hybrid vigour...i said that hybrid vigour is a term used when a cross breeder strikes it lucky...but now you agree with me GrCh Nikki wasnt a hybrid!...my opinion is that GrCh Nikkis success had nothing to do with hybrid vigour or anything such thing and more to do with the strenght of the blood on the bottom of the ped...seriously would you class Dann's Gar as an ace caliber bulldog??...you say bred with confidence and expectation...i say producing ace caliber gamedogs out un- game proven stock has an element of luck about it...just my opinion...and no disrespect intended You are using the term " hybrid " in the truest scientific meaning in the dictionary.....people who have bred performance bulldogs over many years have simply used it in the way of describing totally unrelated blood within the breed......a bit like stating that a dog is dead game when its still alive its just a phrase thats coined.........yes if we want to be completely scientifically punctual your donkey/horse explannation is correct................how can 1 dog that go,s back to Dibo and 1 dog that go,s back to Colby have common ancestry its like saying me and you have common ancestry ! I cant even remember why Nikki came into it now and i cant be arsed to trawl back through the thread and find what it was you said about luck.....my simple point is that 2 dogs from unrelated pure blood ( a hybrid ) that produces great dogs is not luck.....all breeding has an element of luck but producing a litter of game dogs out of pure family bred curs has far more expectation than producing a litter of game dogs out of scatterbred gr ch deeply game dogs in my opinion. As for stories....there must have been more stories written about dogs of this breed than every other breed of dog put together.....i was once told "believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see " !! Edited October 31, 2015 by gnasher16 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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