AKA-BRINDLE 879 Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 I see someone mentioned the DDA . I don't know about Britain but in Ireland those who had the APBT truly to heart felt that all the bad publicity and the Irish DDA (he's not banned in the Republic) was the best thing to happen the breed because it got so many tossers away from the breed. Those who held on to them were the real fanciers. JMHO but the APBT deserves nothing but the best of owners. If it got so many tossers away from the breed...why when i was over Belfast about 10 years back was it every other dog i saw on the street was a Pit Bull?...there was more in the hands of Tossers after the DDA and all the media hysteria than before...the same as it was in England...and thats not to mention the northern Irish dogmen that sold these dogs to just about any tosser with the money to buy em....and that includes asian peddlers that helped flood English cities with dogs that re-ignited a shit-storm that brought heat down on just about everyone...the thing you need to remember it wasnt just the chavs, plastic gangsters and misguided kids that fell foul of the DDA...genuine and serious dogmen got busted too...the UK's a small place with too many prying eyes and nosy neighbours...a law like the DDA will bring unwanted heat on even the best of owners...met and spoke to a lot of dog lads over the years...never heard anyone say that the DDA was the best thing ever to happen...seems to be a bit of an internet forum thing that In terms of quality of dogs the proof is in the pudding.....the less popular the breed has been over time the higher the quality has been i think thats what people mean in terms of the dda being a good thing................the Uk just isnt the place for serious dogmen everything is against producing top quality dogs....society,space,laws......the Uk was only ever going to be 3rd division when it came to bulldogs and even that was never going to have a long shelf life. If the quality of the pudding you are talking about was straight after the ban came in...well things where already in place by then...dogs done well despite the DDA it certainly wernt beneficial to them dogs as you try to claim...ask yourself...where where those dogmen 10 years later?...i agree with what you say about the UK...sadly it was never going to be the best place for these dogs to prosper Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Would that really be hybrid vigour? I thought if you done a straight cross it was so? Also would it not work better if you wanted a tombstone based dog that you out each one to something that was also tight? Each on that pedigree (4th gen ) barring one I think was a tombstone to a random dog/family, would it not improve your chances if they had been to a tight dog so it would perhaps read like tombstone/bolio, T/jeep, T/jocko etc. (As an example ) ? A straight cross within a breed cannot have the same genetic starting point and be expected to produce hybrid vigour......when you look in the back of a dog like Tombstone the common genetic path as it is with much of the breed is Dibo......Tombstone/Bolio isnt a cross in the strictest sense of the word as many of Carvers stuff went back to the same genetic starting point as Tombstone... the Bolio dogs degenerated through Patrick as he was trying to breed what the public wanted whereas Indian Sonny was trying to beat what the public had !.....i would never claim it as scientific fact but from my understanding from folk qualified enough to have an opinion the best chance of producing competition dogs from a small yard comes from the crossing of 2 individually pure lines. Scatterbreeding can produce ace individual dogs but you won't get the consistency.... If you have a yard big enough to play the genetic lottery that is.........most countries dont. Edited October 25, 2015 by gnasher16 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) If the quality of the pudding you are talking about was straight after the ban came in...well things where already in place by then...dogs done well despite the DDA it certainly wernt beneficial to them dogs as you try to claim...ask yourself...where where those dogmen 10 years later?...i agree with what you say about the UK...sadly it was never going to be the best place for these dogs to prosper Maybe im wording it wrong.....when i talk about quality of the dogs im not talking about Rover being a better dog than Charlie im talking about the game in general.....before the ban look at some of the silly match reports sent into the journal,look at the quality of some of the shows.........when the owner of the Red Lion could legally own a dog and dip his toes into a world he didnt really understand it was never going to make for top sport.........likewise since ownership has been relaxed again the game in this country is finished. Edited October 25, 2015 by gnasher16 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKA-BRINDLE 879 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 If the quality of the pudding you are talking about was straight after the ban came in...well things where already in place by then...dogs done well despite the DDA it certainly wernt beneficial to them dogs as you try to claim...ask yourself...where where those dogmen 10 years later?...i agree with what you say about the UK...sadly it was never going to be the best place for these dogs to prosper Maybe im wording it wrong.....when i talk about quality of the dogs im not talking about Rover being a better dog than Charlie im talking about the game in general.....before the ban look at some of the silly match reports sent into the journal,look at the quality of some of the shows.........when the owner of the Red Lion could legally own a dog and dip his toes into a world he didnt really understand it was never going to make for top sport.........likewise since ownership has been relaxed again the game in this country is finished. If the quality of the pudding you are talking about was straight after the ban came in...well things where already in place by then...dogs done well despite the DDA it certainly wernt beneficial to them dogs as you try to claim...ask yourself...where where those dogmen 10 years later?...i agree with what you say about the UK...sadly it was never going to be the best place for these dogs to prosper Maybe im wording it wrong.....when i talk about quality of the dogs im not talking about Rover being a better dog than Charlie im talking about the game in general.....before the ban look at some of the silly match reports sent into the journal,look at the quality of some of the shows.........when the owner of the Red Lion could legally own a dog and dip his toes into a world he didnt really understand it was never going to make for top sport.........likewise since ownership has been relaxed again the game in this country is finished. So are you talking about Red lion kennels CH Rover?.......... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKA-BRINDLE 879 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Silversnake 1,099 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Unfortunately that game is just too messy,I truly love those animals and all they stand for and if it were possible to have a decent circle with the improvement of the breed as the number one priority I would love to be involved. In America that is what they had for a long period of time and they produced some excellence. All I have seen here is ego and dishonesty along with a lot of other bull$hit (except for a very few) which ruins it for everyone, especially the breed. It sounds like it is similar across the ditch but I do hope one day things change for the better. IMO those dogs are the exact opposite of an ego boost they filled me with awe and made me feel very inferior. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
South hams hunter 8,921 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Ok tombstone bolio was a poor choice but what I mean is how can you expect hybrid vigour from a family bred dog to a scatter bred dog? Is it really hybrid vigour if they're both the same breed? They may be different families but they are still all apbt. Hybrid vigour works in things like bull/grey because it combines attributes like strength and speed, jaw power and prey drive but does it do the same with a cross of two families or just magnify/improve the traits already there? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,436 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 You can't get true hybrid vigour in dog breeding whether it's crossing different breeds or different strains within breeds they're still the same species so you'll never get hybrid vigour in the true sense of the word because they're not a hybrid. That's not to say widening the gene pool won't have positive effects, it's just not hybrid vigour. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lenmcharristar 9,721 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 hybrid vigour is what ya get mating a tiger to a lion 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKA-BRINDLE 879 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Hybrid vigour is a term used in the dog game when someone strikes it lucky on a cross breed...these pitbull threads always tend to be a bit blind leading the blind 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 If the quality of the pudding you are talking about was straight after the ban came in...well things where already in place by then...dogs done well despite the DDA it certainly wernt beneficial to them dogs as you try to claim...ask yourself...where where those dogmen 10 years later?...i agree with what you say about the UK...sadly it was never going to be the best place for these dogs to prosper Maybe im wording it wrong.....when i talk about quality of the dogs im not talking about Rover being a better dog than Charlie im talking about the game in general.....before the ban look at some of the silly match reports sent into the journal,look at the quality of some of the shows.........when the owner of the Red Lion could legally own a dog and dip his toes into a world he didnt really understand it was never going to make for top sport.........likewise since ownership has been relaxed again the game in this country is finished. If the quality of the pudding you are talking about was straight after the ban came in...well things where already in place by then...dogs done well despite the DDA it certainly wernt beneficial to them dogs as you try to claim...ask yourself...where where those dogmen 10 years later?...i agree with what you say about the UK...sadly it was never going to be the best place for these dogs to prosper Maybe im wording it wrong.....when i talk about quality of the dogs im not talking about Rover being a better dog than Charlie im talking about the game in general.....before the ban look at some of the silly match reports sent into the journal,look at the quality of some of the shows.........when the owner of the Red Lion could legally own a dog and dip his toes into a world he didnt really understand it was never going to make for top sport.........likewise since ownership has been relaxed again the game in this country is finished. So are you talking about Red lion kennels CH Rover?.......... Oh the irony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Ok tombstone bolio was a poor choice but what I mean is how can you expect hybrid vigour from a family bred dog to a scatter bred dog? Is it really hybrid vigour if they're both the same breed? They may be different families but they are still all apbt. Hybrid vigour works in things like bull/grey because it combines attributes like strength and speed, jaw power and prey drive but does it do the same with a cross of two families or just magnify/improve the traits already there? The tighter the gene pool is the more reaction you can expect when it is crossed.........crossing 2 different breeds has nothing to do with hybrid vigour it is just the basic mongrelising of a dog.....yes it can produce good animals but not from a breeding point of view as there is absolutely no way of knowing how the genes have fallen and therefore no way of knowing how to continue your breeding program apart from a basic best to best basis ( genetic lottery ). Outcrossing 2 inbred family dogs will bring out the best ( and the worst ) of what both those families have to offer.......in other words it will bring out the genetic extremes......the rest is down to selectivity and hard testing/culling to move the dogs in the right direction.......as an example inbred suppression ruined the Mayfield dogs as a pure strain......but they still made fantastic crosses on other lines as the genetic strength was there. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Hybrid vigour is a term used in the dog game when someone strikes it lucky on a cross breed...these pitbull threads always tend to be a bit blind leading the blind I couldnt disagree more strongly......to say that ace calibre dogs such as gr ch Mayday or infact closer to home an ace calibre dog like gr ch Nikki was produced via " a lucky strike " to me is an insult......yes there will of course be luck involved in any performance breeding but breeding is about stacking the odds in your favour and if you think men who have dedicated years to producing good dogs did so on the toss of a coin......i couldnt agree. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
South hams hunter 8,921 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 I can appreciate that gnasher but of course if you cross two soecies you can exoect certain things, look at lurchers. We can tell the cross quite often based on looks and know roughly how they'll behave and work because of their parenting. We can even cross these breeds and get a good idea of how they will come out and what traits/ characteristics they will have. Surely the best characteristics from two different breeds is the definition of hybrid vigour? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 hybrid vigour is what ya get mating a tiger to a lion If you breed a Siskin to a Goldfinch it produces a hybrid........but they are still Finches !.............what terminology would you prefer the everyday man to use instead ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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