Is The Apbt The True Bulldog Or A Terrier Cross?

[BGD 6,436]

Ok, lets rewind this a bit and start with the bulldog. No, not them John D Johnson inspired efforts that ain't got the balls they were born with but the original bulldog, British bred. Look to it's name 'bull'dog because long before dog fighting was popular bull baiting was the game. Them real bulldogs were set, on mass, to a bull in a ring and required to hold on, many taking serious stick and dying in the process and eventually bringing that animal to it's knees. Bear baiting was pretty popular too but bears were rare and expensive and so like today (!) rare and expensive things are usually only in the capital. The rest of the country used bulls and the name stuck. So apart from avoiding them hooves an feet not much style was needed simply guts and tenacity with a jaw to match. The sport lasted centuries.

 

Around 1835 or sommat bull baiting was becoming unpopular, not for the cruelty, mainly from the hooligan element that followed it! Subsiquently it was banned and dog fighting, which was/is a much smaller quieter affair became popular.

 

Thing is, and it's well documented, them old bulldogs were too slow and heavy for the job. It was lighter, faster dogs that produced the better matches and so they bred the dogs lighter, to suit. In Scotland for a few years they kept the heavier type, 'bluepauls' they called em but even these died out.

Dogs were/are fought on weight, so if you've only got a bulldog but you need a smaller faster dog for the pit, bearing in mind that all you then need to find is folk with the same weight dogs for a match, where you gonna go lookin for sommat to down size and speed up your dog...

 

Well i'm backing those nondescript terrier types that were slaying rats in there hundreds in the pits on the days they weren't fighting dogs....

 

And just like those line bred bull bred lurchers that breed true to type, once that initial lining was done, if it was right, they just bred close. No need to add any more terrier, they were now a type and some of the best emigrated to a land with much less persecution and flourished, into what is now the American Pitt Bull Terrier... and although there is only a drop of terrier, that terrier is obviously there... forever!

 

Anyway's that's my take on it, make of that what you will...

Can't like so have a thumbs up instead

[DogFox123 1,379]

Ok, lets rewind this a bit and start with the bulldog. No, not them John D Johnson inspired efforts that ain't got the balls they were born with but the original bulldog, British bred from molossors (spelling?) and mastiffs. Look to it's name 'bull'dog because long before dog fighting was popular bull baiting was the game. Them real bulldogs were set, on mass, to a bull in a ring and required to hold on, many taking serious stick and dying in the process and eventually bringing that animal to it's knees. Bear baiting was pretty popular too but bears were rare and expensive and so like today (!) rare and expensive things are usually only in the capital. The rest of the country used bulls and the name stuck. So apart from avoiding them hooves an feet not much style was needed simply guts and tenacity with a jaw to match. The sport lasted centuries.

Around 1835 or sommat bull baiting was becoming unpopular, not for the cruelty, mainly from the hooligan element that followed it! Subsiquently it was banned and dog fighting, which was/is a much smaller quieter affair became popular.

Thing is, and it's well documented, them old bulldogs were too slow and heavy for the job. It was lighter, faster dogs that produced the better matches and so they bred the dogs lighter, to suit. In Scotland for a few years they kept the heavier type, 'bluepauls' they called em but even these died out.

Dogs were/are fought on weight, so if you've only got a bulldog but you need a smaller faster dog for the pit, bearing in mind that all you then need to find is folk with the same weight dogs for a match, where you gonna go lookin for sommat to down size and speed up your dog...

Well i'm backing those nondescript terrier types that were slaying rats in there hundreds in the pits on the days they weren't fighting dogs....

And just like those line bred bull bred lurchers that breed true to type, once that initial lining was done, if it was right, they just bred close. No need to add any more terrier, they were now a type and some of the best emigrated to a land with much less persecution and flourished, into what is now the American Pitt Bull Terrier... and although there is only a drop of terrier, that terrier is obviously there... forever!

Anyway's that's my take on it, make of that what you will...

 

That's the conventional idea but to me all too convenient, a dog used for Bullbaiting would be anything but slow. The Bulldog was not some massive dog, it fell within the weight range of the APBT.

[Guest Navek]

 

 

 

 

Far too much evidence of crossing in terriers for me to believe those fantasist yanks

The APBT is definitely as close as you'll get to the original bulldog though with some lines being more bulldoggy and almost indistinguishable from the original bulldog looks wise.

I know the American Bulldog is thought by many to be a relative new breed but I've seen pictures from the 1800's of white Bulldog type dogs that look exactly like the American Bulldog.

There was definitely a type of farm mutt that resembled the modern American bulldog dating back to the early days of the colony, the creators of the AB just slapped a name on them and started trying to fix a type.

Very true and many of these American Bulldogs of today are probably new creations, but like you said back in the day there was definitely Bulldog type farm dogs in the south of America.

Oh yeah there was plenty of other breeds used in the creation of the AB but it was definitely based on an already existing "type" which was probably a lot closer to the original bulldog than other breed.

I'm guilty of referring to my APBTs as bulldogs but that's just an easy shorthand, not claiming they're the original pure Bulldog of old.

I myself and a couple others refer to them as bull dogs but not in the meaning of "the American bulldog" but more of its a bull dog type

[Bosun11 537]

The dogs used for bull baiting, in comparison to the pits, were slow. They were also a disposible commodity, used on mass. Pit dogs, from the wager perspective, were much more valuble... Ain't no 'convienent' in it..

[Guest Navek]

As for the terrier added it can still be seen in some types of apbt...saw a litter acouple of year ago out of a good size dog and bitch and acouple of the pups were very terrier looking in size weigh and shape....looked spot on

[oneredtrim 148]

 

 

IMO the dogs that left these shores many years ago and eventually became the APBT in the states had no terrier blood whatsoever in them.

Think about it for a second.

The terrier of those days were mostly curs (same as today) that were used with no locator to bolt or locate their quarry using their voice.

NOW, what would such blood add to a dog that's job was completely different ?

Yes, when the rat pits were flourishing a smaller dog was needed and when bull and bear baiting was common a bigger heavier dog was needed but the dogs that went to America were tested on each other and the best was put to the best. The first breed ever recognised by the United Kennel Club in America was the APBT such was it's purity. IMO he and the greyhound are the most pure bred breeds there are.

American dog men have always labeled them Bulldogs but in no way have any of them ever compared them to the breed now known as the Olde English Bulldog, a breed that was in fact extinct and resurrected the same as the Irish Wolfhounds.

Up until only a few decades ago they were known as Bulldogs, Am Staffs, Pit Bulls,Pit Bulldogs and American Pit Bull Terriers. The purists have always hated the word "terrier" being in the name.

Joe Corvino, one of the fathers of the modern APBT used to call them American Staffords in his adds but bulldogs when he spoke of them.

 

I've no time for fighting sports but love the breed and it's history and the APBT is a classic example of how a breed can be destroyed by the peddlers.

Nice to see someone who's view is the APBT is the original Bulldog.

One thing that backs up your argument is Bulldog is added to Terriers this day and age to harden them up, you wouldn't see the opposite taking place.

 

 

Nuttal once told me if i had a bull line ruunning short of pepper then i could do worse then throwing L.Oakes borders into the mix, naturally being a touch on the kinky side i asked Levi about the terriers gameness, he asked me was flying back into brock with no bottom jaw enough gameness for me...i took his point.

 

Brians forefathers brought down thier northumberland pit type to be bred with a terrier type kept by a pair of butcher brothers in Wigan..not all of em went on to become Staffordshire bull and terriers.

[WILF 46,683]

 

Ok, lets rewind this a bit and start with the bulldog. No, not them John D Johnson inspired efforts that ain't got the balls they were born with but the original bulldog, British bred from molossors (spelling?) and mastiffs. Look to it's name 'bull'dog because long before dog fighting was popular bull baiting was the game. Them real bulldogs were set, on mass, to a bull in a ring and required to hold on, many taking serious stick and dying in the process and eventually bringing that animal to it's knees. Bear baiting was pretty popular too but bears were rare and expensive and so like today (!) rare and expensive things are usually only in the capital. The rest of the country used bulls and the name stuck. So apart from avoiding them hooves an feet not much style was needed simply guts and tenacity with a jaw to match. The sport lasted centuries.

Around 1835 or sommat bull baiting was becoming unpopular, not for the cruelty, mainly from the hooligan element that followed it! Subsiquently it was banned and dog fighting, which was/is a much smaller quieter affair became popular.

Thing is, and it's well documented, them old bulldogs were too slow and heavy for the job. It was lighter, faster dogs that produced the better matches and so they bred the dogs lighter, to suit. In Scotland for a few years they kept the heavier type, 'bluepauls' they called em but even these died out.

Dogs were/are fought on weight, so if you've only got a bulldog but you need a smaller faster dog for the pit, bearing in mind that all you then need to find is folk with the same weight dogs for a match, where you gonna go lookin for sommat to down size and speed up your dog...

Well i'm backing those nondescript terrier types that were slaying rats in there hundreds in the pits on the days they weren't fighting dogs....

And just like those line bred bull bred lurchers that breed true to type, once that initial lining was done, if it was right, they just bred close. No need to add any more terrier, they were now a type and some of the best emigrated to a land with much less persecution and flourished, into what is now the American Pitt Bull Terrier... and although there is only a drop of terrier, that terrier is obviously there... forever!

Anyway's that's my take on it, make of that what you will...

That's the conventional idea but to me all too convenient, a dog used for Bullbaiting would be anything but slow. The Bulldog was not some massive dog, it fell within the weight range of the APBT.

I think the clue is in the text mate "set, en masse on the bull"......speed would have had no bearing on The situation as no matter what way the bull turned there would, I suppose, have been a dog to tackle it.

[neil cooney 10,416]

 

IMO the dogs that left these shores many years ago and eventually became the APBT in the states had no terrier blood whatsoever in them.

Think about it for a second.

The terrier of those days were mostly curs (same as today) that were used with no locator to bolt or locate their quarry using their voice.

NOW, what would such blood add to a dog that's job was completely different ?

Yes, when the rat pits were flourishing a smaller dog was needed and when bull and bear baiting was common a bigger heavier dog was needed but the dogs that went to America were tested on each other and the best was put to the best. The first breed ever recognised by the United Kennel Club in America was the APBT such was it's purity. IMO he and the greyhound are the most pure bred breeds there are.

American dog men have always labeled them Bulldogs but in no way have any of them ever compared them to the breed now known as the Olde English Bulldog, a breed that was in fact extinct and resurrected the same as the Irish Wolfhounds.

Up until only a few decades ago they were known as Bulldogs, Am Staffs, Pit Bulls,Pit Bulldogs and American Pit Bull Terriers. The purists have always hated the word "terrier" being in the name.

Joe Corvino, one of the fathers of the modern APBT used to call them American Staffords in his adds but bulldogs when he spoke of them.

 

I've no time for fighting sports but love the breed and it's history and the APBT is a classic example of how a breed can be destroyed by the peddlers.

Thats interesting.....

 

If im not wrong the Cajun rules were brought out in order to stop a dog needing to scratch into a dead dog to obtain victory.......so if the sole objective was the first dog to kill or inflict as much damage on the opponent as possible is the winner then where is the need for gameness ?......which as we know was a trait that existed in these dogs long before Cajun rules came into play.......yet a trait not really associated with Bulldogs.

 

Just something to think about.

 

Sorry Gnasher, completely wrong.

 

 

As for those who say they can see terrier influences in bulldogs ?

How ?

If they mean physically do they mean the head, 4 legs and a tail ?

If they mean temperament, then that baffles me too.

If you're saying that the bulldog has that do or die attitude that a terrier has ,just maybe the bulldog had that before already.

Do bulldogs hunt like terriers ?

Do they have a desire to go to ground ? (Mind you a friend of mine lost one to ground once, Eagla RIP.)

Can you hunt several bulldogs together ?

Sorry but to compare a proper bulldog to a proper working terrier is like comparing a Thoroughbred racehorse to a pit pony.

 

Let me put it this way.

If you owned a Ferrari and wanted to make it faster.

Would you take out it's engine and replace it with a Landrover engine ?

[DogFox123 1,379]

The dogs used for bull baiting, in comparison to the pits, were slow. They were also a disposible commodity, used on mass. Pit dogs, from the wager perspective, were much more valuble... Ain't no 'convienent' in it..

p

 

Speed is only one part of the game though, plenty of plodders win in the box. The Terriers of those days must have been game dogs that's for sure.

[WILF 46,683]

This is bloody interesting, some great lads here with some decent knowledge.

 

So, Niel, are you saying that what we take as terrier traits now are actually bull traits that have been added into terrier blood?

 

Which I suppose begs the wider question of what are "bull terriers" of any breed?.....or are "bull terriers" a relatively young type in the scheme of things and the various types are just mixtures of bull and terrier types from way back in the day?

 

I genuinely don't know these things so I would be interested to read any replies from folks who do.

[DogFox123 1,379]

This is bloody interesting, some great lads here with some decent knowledge.

So, Niel, are you saying that what we take as terrier traits now are actually bull traits that have been added into terrier blood?

Which I suppose begs the wider question of what are "bull terriers" of any breed?.....or are "bull terriers" a relatively young type in the scheme of things and the various types are just mixtures of bull and terrier types from way back in the day?

I genuinely don't know these things so I would be interested to read any replies from folks who do.

Well Pit dog was entered to Nuttal's terriers back in the day for instance, work that one out ;-)

[nans pat 2,575]

were did the red nose bulls come into it,are these a hybrid type,

[DogFox123 1,379]

were did the red nose bulls come into it,are these a hybrid type,

They're dogs from an Irish strain that most likely came from England..

[Astanley 11,565]

We will never know the whole , unvarnished truth , its all educated guesswork and supposition , part of the problem lies in the writers and authors of bygone times who sometimes didnt have a clue and plagarised each other until even the most unlikely stories became accepted as fact simply by being repeated enough over years ,another problem lies in the names /titles/labels we have always given our dogs ,were Bull terriers crossed with each other ,or was the name the result of breeding bulldogs on more terrier like lines ,were the smaller ,faster more terrier like bulldogs the ones that crossed over from the bull baiting to the dog pit, who knows?

[AKA-BRINDLE 879]

I have always been of the way of thinking that if there wernt no Terrier in there...why would they have called them Pitdogs... Bull&Terriers??...judging by illustrations of the time there seems to of been a dominant strain of Pitdog being matched in the pits of London around late 1700's to mid 1800's...that clearly had Terrier of some sort in the mix...compared to the bull baiting dogs...but looking at old paintings you can never be 100% sure...and heres another way of looking at it...back in 1998/99 there was an archaeological dig on the fens near Ely...(if my memory serves me right) there was a report in the Eastern Daily Press...that said they had uncovered an anglo saxon village...which had a number of unusual dog graves as they had been given a proper burial so to speak...they reported that the dogs where a small mastiff type..a similar size to the modern day Staffordshire bull Terrier...just how similar i dont know...but food for thought for those that believe there was no Terrier blood added