Will A .22Lr Go Through??

[danw 1,748]

 

 

:laugh:

 

I'm sure that many of the other contributors will agree .............. it makes damn good reading (and light entertainment) when Deker, danw and Alsone are having a go.

 

Right then, where did I put that popcorn.

Please don't think I single out Alsone I can assure you I'm more than happy to be obnoxious,condescending,pedantic and down right rude to anyone of you on here.

Dan doesn't discriminate. He's equally mean to his beaters, his boss, his boss' Guns and even his poor inanimate partridge feeders.

 

 

 

 

He's a well rounded keeper...

Lol I see being a miserable argumentative c**t as a perk of the job

[Deker 3,478]

 

Is there no end to your guesswork, assumption and internet ramblings?!

 

 

No assumptions on ballistics Deker.

 

Find yourself "The Book of the .22" published in the 1950's and you'll find a book of detailed ballistic gel testings running to 100's of pages on every single .22 round in existence at that time shot with high speed cameras at millisecond intervals, and then you can see for yourself the differences between terminal performance of different rounds from .22 short right up through .22 Hornet. These are not like many of the amateur high speed gel photos you see on the web where the frame doesn't necessarily refelct the pinnacle of the rounds performance, but literally ones where thousands of photos were taken per second with military grade test cameras under laboratory conditions and the frames of optimum significance where expansion and shock wave reached it's peak selected. I spent hundreds of hours in that book as a kid. I've spent many many hours since in the field and at no time have I seen solid lead outperform hollow point. It doesn't mean it should never be used, but it's well documentated that solid bullets have a tendancy to wound and drill holes through prey rather than kill, hence the reason why expanding ammo exists as the number 1 choice for hunting.

 

If you're such a believer in solid ammo over hollowpoint, then go recommend that to the BASC or the police as a first choice round for hunting because you're the only person I know who believes that the terminal performance of a solid lead projectile exceeds the terminal performance of a hollowpoint or fragmenting round when it comes to energy transference, hydrostatic shock induction and tissue damage.

 

So far as lead posioning is concerned, its a cumulative poision. It doesn't kill you, unless really high in dosage but instead affects the brain (CNS). What's a safe dose? You produce evidence to suggest opinion that in man it's safe to eat game birds shot with lead occassionally. That's ok but there was enough concern about lead being washed out from lead pipes to lead to lead pipes being banned from use in water supply. Equally, there was enough concern to lead to it being banned in petrol. Just because something doesn't kill you doesn't mean it's good for you. Also, man eating meat shot with lead is entirely different to feeding a snake with potentially lead contaminated meat, regularly. As I said before, the body mass of a snake is really low and whilst you're probably unlikely to kill it, if it was to fall ill and lead was detected in it's blood, would you really want to be on the receiving end of the vets bills? From his post, I get the feeling that is what dadioles was concerned with.

 

The National Park Service in the USA, have conducted studies on lead poisoning in Condors as a result of them eating animals shot with lead ammunition. The studeis found blood concentrations so high, they would kill a human being (it seems condors are more resiliant if not immune to ill health through lead consuption). This really shows the effects of low body weight compared to ingestion amount: No it doesn't, that's why the LD50 table was introduced.

 

http://www.nps.gov/pinn/learn/nature/leadinfo.htm

 

Other animals reported as being affected by high blood lead concentrations / lead poisoning through eating lead shot animals include: golden eagles, hawks, ravens, turkey vultures, and even at the large end, grizzly bears.

 

I believe that report was produced in 2013, after the 2012 UK report on human health was shelved, and raised fresh concerns about human consumption.

 

 

What are you rambling on about, at which point did anyone say solid ammo was better than some of the more recent variations for terminal performance?

 

And so what some of the animals/birds had higher lead readings, it simply showed some are far more tolerant to it than people, I think it fairly true to say most people are aware lead is not great for you, but we live with it every day, the important figure is any species LD50 which you have completely avoided.

 

You have been spouting on about only using solid ammo for accurate head shots or it won't work. You have warned everyone of the dangers of lead shot and more importantly in the context of this thread, trace lead from lead bullets which passed clean through, and warned everyone not to use them for food, you have absolutely no scientific evidence to back up the core issue in this thread, will a .22lr bullet go clean through and what effect will any trace lead will have if that is the case.

 

You have been taken to task for numerous comments and on the whole returned with posts as your defence, which actually confirm you are wrong.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Deker

[Alsone 789]

Purely for entertainment purposes....

 

You say I'm clueless, but Deker, you don't even know what a FMJ is, argued to the hilt it was the same as an electroplated bullet, and then when I linked you an article on how they were made showing that one was a thick copper jacket formed from a copper cup and the other was a micro thick coating, turned round and said it proved you were right!

 

Above where I suggested that with solid bullets you should be using a precise headshot because of the lack of shocking effects, you said I didn't have a clue, yet it's widely known and reported from the field by numerous shooters, that solid bullets tend to penetrate and pass straight through with a body shot without killing unless they hit a vital structure such as an artery on the way (which is usually more luck than design), hence why ALL the shooting organisations, the police and practically everyone you can think of, recommends hollowpoint or fragmenting ammunition for use against live prey because of the superior energy transferrence caused by expansion and the wider shock wave which more effectively destroys nearby tissues and organs outside of the main bullet track.

 

So far as lead poisoning is concerned, again you ignore the facts. Lead doesn't usually kill except in huge amounts. It's a cumulative poison that affects the CNS (Central Nervous System) primarily and some organs. It causes illness rather than death in most cases. The US National Park Service in Amercia specifically reports dangerously high levels in animals as result of them being fed on shot animals and yet you still insist that the OP and Dadioles shouldn't be cautious about feeding shot rabbits to small animals.....

 

 

 

To go off at a tangent, about the board, there's no need for threads to ever diverge into this. If you don't agree, that's fine, you have your view and I have mine. We can simply agree to disagree without the personal attacks you sometimes feel the need to make.

 

My personal view here is simple, I would be cautious about feeding potentially contaminated meat to small animals and to that end I would headshoot, as a best pratice if acceptable to the snake or wildflife park, remove the heads or if not possibly use FMJ if I found they were staying intact. No-one ever got landed with a vets bill for ensuring the purity of the food. However, what each individual chooses to do, is up to them.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Alsone

[Deker 3,478]

Purely for entertainment purposes....

 

You say I'm clueless, but Deker, you don't even know what a FMJ is, argued to the hilt it was the same as an electroplated bullet, and then when I linked you an article on how they were made showing that one was a thick copper jacket formed from a copper cup and the other was a micro thick coating, turned round and said it proved you were right! You don't have a clue. You need to ask yourself why there is no specifically titled FMJ on a .22lr, because it isn't required, how many times do I have to mention speed and energy to you, a coating, rather than a FULL FMJ is all you need on a .22lr to do the same job. Call it what you like, a copper coating on a .22lr is just as good as a FMJ on a 5.56. You can bandy terminology all you like, effect is the important point, a coating on a .22lr is, in effect, a FMJ, which is why, in shooting environments they will commonly be referred to as FMJ rather than copper coated. I shoot in the field and see results, I don't read the internet and make foolish uninformed statements. But if it will make you happy, I will concede, there is to my knowledge, no specifically termed FMJ on a .22lr.

 

 

Above where I suggested that with solid bullets you should be using a precise headshot because of the lack of shocking effects, you said I didn't have a clue, yet it's widely known and reported from the field by numerous shooters, that solid bullets tend to penetrate and pass straight through with a body shot without killing unless they hit a vital structure such as an artery on the way (which is usually more luck than design), hence why ALL the shooting organisations, the police and practically everyone you can think of, recommends hollowpoint or fragmenting ammunition for use against live prey because of the superior energy transferrence caused by expansion and the wider shock wave which more effectively destroys nearby tissues and organs outside of the main bullet track. You don't have a clue and you don't listen, at no point did I ever say a solid was preferable, or better than some of the more modern expanding ammo. You said if you were using solid you should only take precise headshots, I pointed out quite correctly you didn't have a clue.

 

So far as lead poisoning is concerned, again you ignore the facts. Lead doesn't usually kill except in huge amounts. It's a cumulative poison that affect the CNS (Central Nervous System) primarily and some organs. It causes illness rather than death in most cases. The US National Park Service in Amercia specifically reports dangerously high levels in animals as result of them being fed on shot animals and yet you still insist that the OP and Dadioles shouldn't be cautious about feeding shot rabbits to small animals..... more invention, where have I ever said that?

 

You have a selective memory, vivid imagination, make inaccurate statements and then blame others for your shortcomings.

 

The floor is yours, I'm bored with you!

 

[ianm 2,594]

Seems a lot of yapping for nothing this thread, if your bothered about lead contamination in rabbits just set snares for them, job done.

[walshie 2,804]

I'm sure the OP has his answer somewhere in all this. Now it's resorted to bickering, it's time to lock it.