Will A .22Lr Go Through??

[Alsone 789]

I'm not sure even then Deker with solid ammo you guarantee no contamination. Ok the bullet is less likely to lose fragments as it won't mushroom, but equally if it scrapes bone on the way through, or merely through the action of a round with lead dust on the head passing through a liquid (blood) which washes some off, you're still going to get some low level lead contamination and lead is an accumulative poison.

 

Best practice would seem to dictate therefore that the head should be removed. I imagine big cats, get through quite a lot of rabbits!

 

If that's unacceptable to the park - maybe because the wildlife doesn't like non whole prey, then another alternative might be to see if you can find a copper jacketed FMJ solid bullet.

 

I've had a look and there isn't an FMJ sold in .22LR anymore than I could find, but Winchester still make FMJ in .22 WMR, if you were to change rifles or have access to a .22 WMR:

 

http://www.winchester.com/Products/rimfire-ammunition/Performance/super-x-rimfire/Pages/X22M.aspx

 

The other option for .22 LR, would be copper plated ammunition, although there's no guarantee of non contamination.

 

The round that sprinsg to mind is Remington Viper (plated solid ammo).

[Deker 3,478]

The OP wants rabbits for his friends snake.

 

Who said anything about guaranteeing no lead trace?

 

We have been eating game with lead shot in it for years, We have also been eating rabbits shot with lead bullets for years, why has that not been banned under H&S?

 

No .22lr FMJ, what are you talking about, FMJ is simply a wide term for a lead bullet coated in another metal, there are plenty of solid, copper coated .22lr around, and who said anything about using FMJ anyway?!

Edited April 29, 2015 by Deker

[Alsone 789]

"The OP wants rabbits for his friends snake."

 

Dadioles stated in the post above yours that he supplies them to lions and other animals in the local wildlife park.

 

"Who said anything about guaranteeing no lead trace?

 

We have been eating game with lead shot in it for years, We have also been eating rabbits shot with lead bullets for years, why has that not been banned under H&S?"

 

Probably because humans don't usually eat the heart, lungs or brains of shot animals so the risk is considered minimal.

 

On birds, this side of farm rearing which probably isn't economically viable for the numbers of people who actually eat game, the only way they can be sourced is through shooting, so the fact they're not tested or banned is probably pretty much a reflection of that. On top of that, most people don't eat game that regularly, so once again, the risk is considered minimal and probaly as something that will only present a potential risk to a very small percentage of the population although the risk of lead poisoning from game is documentated:

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627583.500-lead-poisoning-risk-for-frequent-game-eaters.html

 

The UK Food Standards Agency was due to issue a warning about eating game shot with lead in 2012:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/03/warning-health-risk-eating-game-lead

 

 

"No .22lr FMJ, what are you talking about, FMJ is simply a wide term for a lead bullet coated in another metal, there are plenty of solid, copper coated .22lr around, "

 

Sorry but that's incorrect.

 

An FMJ ot TMJ is a bullet wrapped in thin copper or other metal sheet which is then bonded to the inner lead core. The aim is to prevent or control core expansion through the additional physical resitance of the metal jacket and / or increase the temperature the bullet can withstand in terms of friction as it travels down the barrel, thereby reducing lead vapour emmissions and reducing softening effects on the bullet through heat. A coated bullet is simply a bullet that's been electroplated. Electroplating aids friction resitance and possibly vapour reduction but does nothing to control core expansion due to the fact that it's only a few microns thick.

 

and who said anything about using FMJ anyway?!

 

I suggested using FMJ as a way of minimisng the chances / levels of lead contamination as a solid bullet with a FMJ is likely to pass through intact with minimal if any lead contact. It would require a precise headshot though as the lack of expansion means no wide shocking effects.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Alsone

[Deker 3,478]

 

"The OP wants rabbits for his friends snake."

 

Dadioles stated in the post above yours that he supplies them to lions and other animals in the local wildlife park. Dadioles isn't the OP

 

"Who said anything about guaranteeing no lead trace?

 

We have been eating game with lead shot in it for years, We have also been eating rabbits shot with lead bullets for years, why has that not been banned under H&S?"

 

Probably because humans don't usually eat the heart, lungs or brains of shot animals so the risk is considered minimal.

 

On birds, this side of farm rearing which probably isn't economically viable for the numbers of people who actually eat game, the only way they can be sourced is through shooting, so the fact they're not tested or banned is probably pretty much a reflection of that. On top of that, most people don't eat game that regularly, so once again, the risk is considered minimal and probaly as something that will only present a potential risk to a very small percentage of the population although the risk of lead poisoning from game is documentated:

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627583.500-lead-poisoning-risk-for-frequent-game-eaters.html

 

The UK Food Standards Agency was due to issue a warning about eating game shot with lead in 2012: But didn't and still hasn't!

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/03/warning-health-risk-eating-game-lead

 

quotes from your articles meat CONTAINING LEAD SHOT

......analysis of the deboned, pulverised meat revealed that just over three meals of woodcock in a week would take a 70-kilogram person over the lead-threshold set by United Nations bodies "for most farmed animals." Red grouse, partridge and pheasant hit the limit with about 10 meals per week................ (who the F. eats that much and so what, that is lead shot?)

...........The Food Standards Agency has suspended plans to warn pregnant women and young children about the health risks of eating game shot with lead ammunition, prompting confusion and dismay among campaigners.

The agency, which issues official guidance to consumers, had been expected to issue a statement on Wednesday warning vulnerable groups against eating game such as deer, grouse, pheasant and boar killed with lead shot.

It was also expected to advise other adults who regularly ate wild game shot with lead pellets to cut their consumption to avoid serious lead poisoning.

The lead ammunition group, the government's advisory panel, decided on Tuesday to release the guidance, but that decision has been overturned.

That is CONTAINING lead shot, not a bullet passed clean through it, and how many "rabbits" do you think a Snake eats in a week? So you imply a lead bullet which has passed clean through a rabbit is more dangerous to a snake than humans eating lead shot? Lead shot is not controlled under H&S and neither is eating animals shot with lead bullets.

 

 

 

 

"No .22lr FMJ, what are you talking about, FMJ is simply a wide term for a lead bullet coated in another metal, there are plenty of solid, copper coated .22lr around, "

 

Sorry but that's incorrect.

 

An FMJ ot TMJ is a bullet wrapped in thin copper or other metal sheet which is then bonded to the inner lead core. The aim is to prevent or control core expansion through the additional physical resitance of the metal jacket and / or increase the temperature the bullet can withstand in terms of friction as it travels down the barrel, thereby reducing lead vapour emmissions and reducing softening effects on the bullet through heat. A coated bullet is simply a bullet that's been electroplated. Electroplating aids friction resitance and possibly vapour reduction but does nothing to control core expansion due to the fact that it's only a few microns thick. What planet are you on?

 

and who said anything about using FMJ anyway?!

 

I suggested using FMJ as a way of minimisng the chances / levels of lead contamination as a solid bullet with a FMJ is likely to pass through intact with minimal if any lead contact. It would require a precise headshot though as the lack of expansion means no wide shocking effects. You don't have a clue!

 

 

Thank you for confirming everything I said, especially the bit about a FMJ.

 

 

No .22lr FMJ, what are you talking about, FMJ is simply a wide term for a lead bullet coated in another metal, there are plenty of solid, copper coated .22lr around, "

 

Sorry but that's incorrect.

 

An FMJ ot TMJ is a bullet wrapped in thin copper or other metal sheet which is then bonded to the inner lead core

 

Just which part of my comment is incorrect? Are you seriously trying to make something of the words bonded and coated in relation to the speed/heat/energy of a .22lr.? What planet are you on?

Edited April 30, 2015 by Deker

[charlie caller 3,654]

I supply my local wildlife park with rabbits for their snakes and big cats. They are head shot with .22lr and they like to have the heads left on. The bullets expand but do not tend to fragment. I only give them the ones where I am confident that the bullet has exited but it would be interesting to have a few x-rayed to see if there are lead fragments left behind. There was talk of using a small hand held metal detector but I expect that would be deluding yourself as I cannot imagine it being sensitive enough to detect fine particles of lead.

 

HMR bullets fragment like crazy and bits go everywhere. There is not much head left though!

 

Update....

Having just had a bit of a browse on the internet and seen some x-ray photo's of deer meat, it makes me think that this needs to be taken more seriously and I might insist that heads be removed from head shot rabbits as it looks as though minute particles of lead are probably being left behind and over time that can be significantly toxic.

Precisely why I would never risk it with my hawk, one fragment and he's toast.

[Alsone 789]

Deker your posts get more extreme as time goes on. Rather than re-quote and mess up the board I'll just bullet point:

 

1. Never said Dadioles was the OP. He just widened the q. to include his situation with the local wildlife park

 

2. A snake is a small animal with a small body mass so it takes less lead to poison. As for a lion, how many rabbits can a lion eat in a week? Quite a few I expect!

 

3. I didn't confirm anything you said about FMJ.

 

Electroplating is not the same as jacketed. For someone who claims to be the resident expert, I'd expect you to at least know that!

 

Here's a full article on this very question that shows how they are made:

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/07/foghorn/ask-foghorn-whats-up-with-bullets/

 

FMJ's start out with a copper cup that's then stretched over the lead core leaving a thick copper jacket around the bullet. Electroplating involves putting the lead bullet into an electroplating solution, passing a current through it and that then leaves a coating a few thousands of a millimetre thick.

 

4. A solid bullet has wide shocking effects? Really Deker? This side of tumbling it passes straight through with comparatively low energy transfer. Even if it tumbles, the amount of energy transferred compared to a hollow point is still much smaller.

[Deker 3,478]

Deker your posts get more extreme as time goes on. Rather than re-quote and mess up the board I'll just bullet point:

 

1. Never said Dadioles was the OP. He just widened the q. to include his situation with the local wildlife park I quoted the OP, you muddied the water

 

2. A snake is a small animal with a small body mass so it takes less lead to poison. As for a lion, how many rabbits can a lion eat in a week? Quite a few I expect! We are talking about a snake, I'm glad you are an expert of lead trace tolerance in a snake! Perhaps you could tell me the Lead LD 50 for a snake, and will this change in different types of snake?

 

3. I didn't confirm anything you said about FMJ.

 

Electroplating is not the same as jacketed. For someone who claims to be the resident expert, I'd expect you to at least know that! I have never claimed to be any resident expert!

 

Here's a full article on this very question that shows how they are made:

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/07/foghorn/ask-foghorn-whats-up-with-bullets/

 

FMJ's start out with a copper cup that's then stretched over the lead core leaving a thick copper jacket around the bullet. Electroplating involves putting the lead bullet into an electroplating solution, passing a current through it and that then leaves a coating a few thousands of a millimetre thick. You simply don't have a clue, the difference at .22lr speed/energy etc isn't worth talking about!

 

4. A solid bullet has wide shocking effects? Really Deker? This side of tumbling it passes straight through with comparatively low energy transfer. Even if it tumbles, the amount of energy transferred compared to a hollow point is still much smaller. You don't have a clue, shock is not a bullets sole killing power, however, a solid .5 can kill you simply passing close, it doesn't have to touch you, it has that much shock, Rabbits have been shot with solid lead .22lr bullets for over 100 years, it is only relatively recently a much wider range of .22lr ammo has been available, tell all the dead bunnies .22lr solid doesn't kill them unless you place it accurately in their head.

 

 

You would do us all a favour if you stopped reading so much and actually got a rifle and tried shooting, you would soon find that not everything you read is correct!

 

Like it or not, some of us have been doing this for many years, but you will find few, if any, suggest we are experts, you never stop learning in this game. The difference is, many here have actually been out and gained a lot of experience of numerous guns, ammo, calibres, quarry, effects, etc over the years. Unlike some who have been out with a mate once or twice and fill their head with interweb articles.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Deker

[danw 1,748]

Alsone not wishing to take the thread off topic but where do you think waitrose et Al find lead shot free game ahh yes from farmed pheasants you really should make assumptions about subjects you clearly have no knowledge of.

The farming of game birds for the table ( note table not release) is a huge international business

[Alsone 789]

I wasn't aware Dan that game birds were farmed for the table, , but that just vindicates the point that the big players in the market prefer to supply lead free birds for human consumption, even if occassional consumption of non lead free birds by humans is considered safe.

 

If I was Dadioles or the OP though, I too would be cautious about supplying animals with probable lead contamination to be fed regularly to either smaller animals with low body mass or animals such as lions that may consume a lot on a regular basis.

 

Deker, everyone knows a solid bullet has the potential to kill. A stone from a catapult has the potential to kill. However, an expanding round or fragmenting round is much more efficient in producing widespread shocking effect. A small low power rimfire round poses a real danger of wounding if solid and not placed precisely. It isn't a .5.

[Deker 3,478]

I wasn't aware Dan that game birds were farmed for the table, , but that just vindicates the point that the big players in the market prefer to supply lead free birds for human consumption, even if occassional consumption of non lead free birds by humans is considered safe. No it doesn't, it means they want a steady reliable supply of whole carcases, cheap! My Game dealer will not touch farmed ANYTHING!

 

If I was Dadioles or the OP though, I too would be cautious about supplying animals with probable lead contamination to be fed regularly to either smaller animals with low body mass or animals such as lions that may consume a lot on a regular basis. On what scientific basis do you make this judgement. Has it not occurred to you that generally animals eat in proportion to their body mass, what is the LD50 for snakes with lead, and whilst you are at it Lions? Until you can supply that information you don't have a clue how much lead they can tolerate.

 

Deker, everyone knows a solid bullet has the potential to kill. A stone from a catapult has the potential to kill. However, an expanding round or fragmenting round is much more efficient in producing widespread shocking effect. A small low power rimfire round poses a real danger of wounding if solid and not placed precisely. It isn't a .5. You have so much to learn and once again avoid the points I made.

 

 

Is there no end to your guesswork, assumption and internet ramblings?!

[Tremo 138]

:laugh:

 

I'm sure that many of the other contributors will agree .............. it makes damn good reading (and light entertainment) when Deker, danw and Alsone are having a go.

 

Right then, where did I put that popcorn.

[Yokel Matt 918]

I never new the humble .22LR had such complex terminal ballistics!

 

Think of the ricochets you'd get with a. 22LR FMJ if they actually made them - It's bad enough with subs, FMJ would be epic! You probably wouldn't have to worry about lead poisoning with the copper washed high velocity .22 LR as they are so inaccurate you'd probably miss the thing anyway.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Yokel Matt

[danw 1,748]

:laugh:

 

I'm sure that many of the other contributors will agree .............. it makes damn good reading (and light entertainment) when Deker, danw and Alsone are having a go.

 

Right then, where did I put that popcorn.

Please don't think I single out Alsone I can assure you I'm more than happy to be obnoxious,condescending,pedantic and down right rude to anyone of you on here.

[Alsone 789]

Is there no end to your guesswork, assumption and internet ramblings?!

 

 

No assumptions on ballistics Deker.

 

Find yourself "The Book of the .22" published in the 1950's and you'll find a book of detailed ballistic gel testings running to 100's of pages on every single .22 round in existence at that time shot with high speed cameras at millisecond intervals, and then you can see for yourself the differences between terminal performance of different rounds from .22 short right up through .22 Hornet. These are not like many of the amateur high speed gel photos you see on the web where the frame doesn't necessarily refelct the pinnacle of the rounds performance, but literally ones where thousands of photos were taken per second with military grade test cameras under laboratory conditions and the frames of optimum significance where expansion and shock wave reached it's peak selected. I spent hundreds of hours in that book as a kid. I've spent many many hours since in the field and at no time have I seen solid lead outperform hollow point. It doesn't mean it should never be used, but it's well documentated that solid bullets have a tendancy to wound and drill holes through prey rather than kill, hence the reason why expanding ammo exists as the number 1 choice for hunting.

 

If you're such a believer in solid ammo over hollowpoint, then go recommend that to the BASC or the police as a first choice round for hunting because you're the only person I know who believes that the terminal performance of a solid lead projectile exceeds the terminal performance of a hollowpoint or fragmenting round when it comes to energy transference, hydrostatic shock induction and tissue damage.

 

So far as lead posioning is concerned, its a cumulative poision. It doesn't kill you, unless really high in dosage but instead affects the brain (CNS). What's a safe dose? You produce evidence to suggest opinion that in man it's safe to eat game birds shot with lead occassionally. That's ok but there was enough concern about lead being washed out from lead pipes to lead to lead pipes being banned from use in water supply. Equally, there was enough concern to lead to it being banned in petrol. Just because something doesn't kill you doesn't mean it's good for you. Also, man eating meat shot with lead is entirely different to feeding a snake with potentially lead contaminated meat, regularly. As I said before, the body mass of a snake is really low and whilst you're probably unlikely to kill it, if it was to fall ill and lead was detected in it's blood, would you really want to be on the receiving end of the vets bills? From his post, I get the feeling that is what dadioles was concerned with.

 

The National Park Service in the USA, have conducted studies on lead poisoning in Condors as a result of them eating animals shot with lead ammunition. The studeis found blood concentrations so high, they would kill a human being (it seems condors are more resiliant if not immune to ill health through lead consuption). This really shows the effects of low body weight compared to ingestion amount:

 

http://www.nps.gov/pinn/learn/nature/leadinfo.htm

 

Other animals reported as being affected by high blood lead concentrations / lead poisoning through eating lead shot animals include: golden eagles, hawks, ravens, turkey vultures, and even at the large end, grizzly bears.

 

I believe that report was produced in 2013, after the 2012 UK report on human health was shelved, and raised fresh concerns about human consumption.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Alsone

[Born Hunter 17,813]

 

:laugh:

 

I'm sure that many of the other contributors will agree .............. it makes damn good reading (and light entertainment) when Deker, danw and Alsone are having a go.

 

Right then, where did I put that popcorn.

Please don't think I single out Alsone I can assure you I'm more than happy to be obnoxious,condescending,pedantic and down right rude to anyone of you on here.

Dan doesn't discriminate. He's equally mean to his beaters, his boss, his boss' Guns and even his poor inanimate partridge feeders.

 

 

 

 

He's a well rounded keeper...