Shooting My First Reloads...223

[slipper 116]

yes definitely let the barrel cool between shots, as a rifle straight out of the bag will have a stone cold barrel and if you zero with a warm barrel it will be a waste of time

[Tremo 138]

Really surprised me how much difference the temperature of the barrel made... Learning folks!

 

That's the thing with reloading mate ............. you never stop learning, not even when you have years of experience under you belt.

 

I like to think of an addiction rather than a hobby/pastime.

[riflehunter583 58]

its like nicotine but without the fags!

 

ive been trying different brass today and changing (seating depth/ powder weight / neck tension) none of todays have been crimped.

 

and I didn't let the barrel cool all groups have been sub 0.4 inch so its not just barrel temp and crimp allot this helps alot. there are loads of variables from my experience. key is to find what variables your gun likes.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tremo 138]

Riflehunter583 is spot on. Its all about your rifle. There is no magical recipe.

 

Like I said earlier, I don't crimp and I'm getting the same size groups at 100 yards. I don't have s specific time period that I leave the barrel cool between rounds, but at the same time I don't let them off like I'm shooting an Uzi either.

[charlie caller 3,654]

Clearly as the photos show, your group size has shrunk considerably after applying a decent crimp, but lets remember that the bullets you are loading, MAY not be the ones your barrel likes best, you need to try some different bullets, if you can get some Sierra, try them, yes it can get expensive, however once you have found the magic formula you will have a load you can be confident in, you are getting there mate, as your re-loads are far better than the factory rounds you were shooting already, also try a different make of primer (start low and work up if you do) as it is rather surprising how a different primer can sometimes affect a group size, I dont think it will be long before you are shooting cloverleaf groups, well done and carry on

[DeerhoundLurcherMan 997]

Went to a "reloading class" today. Felt reassured that what I have been doing so far is correct and safe...

 

Things that stick in my mind are that apparently the lee beam scales I use are not the best, although the rest of the lee gear is very good..

 

Showed him a pic of my group (last pic I put up), he said it looks ok, was told to disregard the flyer and that the other one that wasn't touching could be my shooting. He said stick with my load for now and try shooting the group with my magnification turned down.. Then start playing with the distance from the ogive to the lands, ( can't remember what it's called)....so I will need a bullet comparator? Or something... Lol all good fun...

 

Also I didn't know that I could buy and store an unlimited amount of non expanding ammo? And the hornady amax are identical to the vmax just boxed up with a different label!!

[DeerhoundLurcherMan 997]

Pics to follow using the same rounds with the mag wound down... When this wind pisses off!!

[AThomas 32]

Very cool and very addictive,and a hobby/sport in it's own right,glad it's working out for you.

As you've found out,some if not most rifle will group differently hot or cold,and for an accurate and true test the whole lot have to be the same.

 

My tika t3 lite gets hot quite quickly,but as a stalking rifle,I normally just check where the first cold bore shot is,then start to load develop.

 

Bullet comparators are invaluable for measuring the ogive,they measure the exact same distance it stops being for example .243 when the bullet starts to taper,so you're not measuring to the point of the bullet,which with soft points like I use for most of my stalking can give a slightly false reading,same for ballistic tips.

 

You can get you're own fired cases threaded and tapped so that they fit in the hornady oal gauge,then it's just a case of measuring the distance to the lands,this is the best way,as the case is then specific to you're gun.

 

Another way to roughly get an idea is to get a fired case,stick a bullet in,(no primer or powder) and slowly close chamber the round,then measure this as a starting point.You can mark the tip of the bullet with marker to see the rifling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lppK2jJ3XE

[charlie caller 3,654]

Nothing wrong with Lee beam scales mate, a little fiddly perhaps, but damn accurate.

[Tremo 138]

Went to a "reloading class" today. Felt reassured that what I have been doing so far is correct and safe...

 

Things that stick in my mind are that apparently the lee beam scales I use are not the best, although the rest of the lee gear is very good..

 

Showed him a pic of my group (last pic I put up), he said it looks ok, was told to disregard the flyer and that the other one that wasn't touching could be my shooting. He said stick with my load for now and try shooting the group with my magnification turned down.. Then start playing with the distance from the ogive to the lands, ( can't remember what it's called)....so I will need a bullet comparator? Or something... Lol all good fun...

 

Also I didn't know that I could buy and store an unlimited amount of non expanding ammo? And the hornady amax are identical to the vmax just boxed up with a different label!!

 

You definately have the bug mate.

 

Keep up the perseverance, you will get there.

[riflehunter583 58]

Very cool and very addictive,and a hobby/sport in it's own right,glad it's working out for you.

As you've found out,some if not most rifle will group differently hot or cold,and for an accurate and true test the whole lot have to be the same.

 

My tika t3 lite gets hot quite quickly,but as a stalking rifle,I normally just check where the first cold bore shot is,then start to load develop.

 

Bullet comparators are invaluable for measuring the ogive,they measure the exact same distance it stops being for example .243 when the bullet starts to taper,so you're not measuring to the point of the bullet,which with soft points like I use for most of my stalking can give a slightly false reading,same for ballistic tips.

 

You can get you're own fired cases threaded and tapped so that they fit in the hornady oal gauge,then it's just a case of measuring the distance to the lands,this is the best way,as the case is then specific to you're gun.

 

Another way to roughly get an idea is to get a fired case,stick a bullet in,(no primer or powder) and slowly close chamber the round,then measure this as a starting point.You can mark the tip of the bullet with marker to see the rifling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lppK2jJ3XE

 

thinking about it, to be fair your groups are good if its windy and you have a basic trigger and basic brass /average bullets.

 

a lot of the time people blame the reloads when its the wind or the rest or shooting technique. maybe your reloads are good. I would defo set up your sizing die and press right so you get good neck tension and put same presur eon each stroke to get consistent neck tension. - right powder weight - right oqive length from lands good neck tensin and I think you will be happy.

 

the second way of measuring the ogive to lands is how I have done it. never had an oal guage. - no primer no powder. just bullet in case with slight neck tension. carful not to get a false reading easy done. ie bullet stuck in lands or too little neck tension bullet moves when extracting case.

 

how close or far away bullet from rifling - this will make a big difference as will best powder weight for your rifle.

 

keep us updated with your findings.

[charlie caller 3,654]

And as I have said before, when you have dicked about altering the distance to the lands, a hundred times over, you will MOST LIKELY find your rifle prefers a jump to the rifling as many do, I am not saying dont experiment (safely) as you might find a magic distance and it will be 10thou away, but dont spend hours and hours doing it, concentrate on uniform neck tension (crimp) case prep, powder measure, and careful primer seating, and rifle hunters method of measuring aol does work, just make sure when you close the bolt on the round you do it slowly, and do it at least 3 times and measure every time, then seat your bullet back to load data spec and find it groups best with a jump lol

[AThomas 32]

Taken from the Berger website,and a little bit about seating depth and seating depth.

 

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).

For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.

Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.

Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.

Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.

Solution

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith

[riflehunter583 58]

I read this in the berger reloading manual tried it and it showed very very clearly what jump was needed in my rig. showed an obvious pattern. highly recomened method of finding best oal for a specific load.

[AThomas 32]

Were lucky here in Anglesey, we have an indoor 100yrd range,and I've tried this method with really good success.