Big Cats in the UK

[Dawn B 212]

I respect everyones opinion and we are all entitled to it For me though, proof, undeniable proof of the existence of Big Cats is just not apparent. I would LOVE there to be, I adore Cats and Big cats are a particular favourite, but I just cannot accept the "evidence" which is vague to say the least in all of these cases. The escaped pets are totally true, but even then we are approaching 20yrs ago in these cases.

 

So, I await the day when there is a newsflash to say one has been caught on camera, definitive proof, and Ill be chuffed to bits!

Dawn.

[Guest Ditch_Shitter]

Ok, Dawn. Your selective use of quotation and stark, total Evasion of Anything I offer, to which ye don't feel ye have Any response is getting boringly repettetive. It's clear you have some personal 'Thing' about 'Proving' there's nothing out there. Myself? I'm not so closed minded. I examine all the stuff I can (and, my god; Have I examined some stuff!). I present points? You chuck scorn at them. I present FACTS? They don't suit ye? Ye have no answer? Well then; You just go right ahead and totally IGNORE then, won't ye?

 

The only indisputable Truth surrounding this issue, to date, Anywhere, is that no one's yet been able to produce the incontravertable evidence that the 'anti / Refusenicks' always demand. Above we again see the same old arguements trotted out. " Why No This? Why No That? ". Yet dare to mention that such stuff Has been happened upon ~ but that The Authorities won't Ever allow it to become accepted? Hey! Now the very Government depearments who lie through their back teeth to hammer what every square peg they fancy into a round hole are suddenly ye allies?!

 

Like; Badgers Don't harbour TB and so there's no need for any culls. Like Burns proved the case for a Ban on hunting? Like ANY block headed, fit looking Dog with a short, glossy coat needs castration before being sumaraly executed? Like anyone who dare suggest their could be some " Large, Non Indiginous Mamallian Carnivoures " out there will be rubbished, riddiculed and smothered ~ whilst that same Government department lisences the ALDRITCH FOOT SNARE so that my own, personal friend can Use the damn thing, at the behest of that Govt. dept's own 'Men in Black' Direct phone call; 'UpStairs' at Defra to my mates personal mobile. How Come, Dawn?

 

 

Ref' ye latest stream of stabs and guess work?

 

 

 

[1]Couger followed down the road by my Other mate? The guy doesn't own a computer and isn't in the habit of carrying a camera everywhere he goes. Get over it.

 

 

[2] I never said the 'Chausse in the Dockyard was " Brown of Ticked ", Dawn. But, hey, be my guest; Take yet another wild stab, eh

 

 

[3] I've Never disputed there are large, possibly quite mean looking Feral cats out there, Dawn. I can even accept there may be examples of the stuff you dredged up from Google. Why not? But why did ye choose to stop there? Did nothing else suit your personal line??? I've personally been passed photo's of very fit, lean, healthy looking cougers; Sat, wearing red collars. In very nice looking, rather 'posh' and completely contemporary kitchens and on comfortable, humans beds. Not quite what the DWA Act allows for, but there it is. Google? A cursory glance at this very forum will show ye that the APBT is alive, well and being " Game Tested " in uk as we speak. NOT according to the Government, perhaps. But then, maybe such doesn't suit Them?

 

[4] The govt's secret test results 'confirmed' ONLY that the hairs were Not from a melanistic leopard. Dawn; Take as long as ye like over this one. Phone a friend. Search Google till ye eyes bleed. Trawl through every and any 'Big Cats' discussion group out there. Only Please show me where I have Ever agreed ye have Leopards in uk.

 

I'm the guy who personally approached the Big Cat Keeper at Marwell and posed an open ended question to him. Result? He further enhanced my own, personal conviction that there Are No Leopards at large in uk. He told me; Even Leopards bred for generations in captivity, suffering no competition for their 'prey', Still shove their food up trees. It's genetic in that species.

 

See? I'm open minded. But I'm Not stupid. If there were leopards in uk, there'd be - IMHO - dead sheep, deer and Dogs, even the odd child, dripping down from trees. Unquestionable. People Would notice that sort of shit! I agree totally; It just doesn't happen. Nor have I ever, Anywhere, suggested it might or should.

 

 

 

As to what I believe might well be out there? Felix Chausse, Lynx and the odd Couger. That's my opinion. It's an opinion based on what I Know. NOT moulded around what I simply, for what ever reason, choose to reject and rubbish.

 

Let me ask you, Dawn; Have you ever bought a £5 deal of Smack? No? Thank god for that then. Because Your having not experienced it means smack addiction amongst our inner city kids Cannot exist. Same criteria.

 

Now, Pretty Please: Give me Your view on the Aldrich Foot Snare ? Pretty please with suger on it ....? Dawn? WHY?

 

Anyone ....???

[Dawn B 212]

I take it your post also includes all the other "none believers" too DS? or just me?

 

I dont believe for one cotton picking minute Big Cats are breeding in our countryside, Leopards, Pumas, lynx's or Tigger from Winnie the Pooh!

 

Re the traps,

Currently there is only one foot snare, the Aldrich, licensed for use in the UK and this can only be used to catch large non-indigenous mammals, i.e. for the recapture of escaped zoo animals

Taken from

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/tb/pdf/badger_e.pdf.

For the recapture of escaped Zoo animals. Yes, I totally agree with that.

[Guest Ditch_Shitter]

I take it your post also includes all the other "none believers" too DS? or just me?

 

I dont believe for one cotton picking minute Big Cats are breeding in our countryside, Leopards, Pumas, lynx's or Tigger from Winnie the Pooh!

 

 

Of course I encompass anyone else who wishes to discuss this matter, Dawn. What makes ye think I have a 'personal' issue with you here? This is a 'Forum'. We're not huddled in some Snug. It's all being aired openly - as it should be - and others are contributing. If anyone feels my comments may embrace them? By all means. Why not?

 

And now you highlight " Breeding "? There. I've just quoted you, in parenthasis. Now would ye care to 'Quote' where I said I believed cats were 'Breeding'? I mean, please; Let's at least keep Our part of this discussion on a straight line. I suspect, without trawling back through all this, that I've at least stuck pretty much to my own primary assertions. No?

 

Nor have I ever brought " Tigger " or " Winnie the Pooh (!) " into the discussion, have I? I'm trying to keep this serious and meaningful, Dawn. Nothing wrong with a bit of banter along the way. But " Winnie the Pooh "???

 

 

Anyway, thanks for the seventy odd page PDF link ye put there. That crashed my computer before I even had time to consider wether it might be worth trawling through seventy plus pages in search of the few words ye quoted, without citation or source beyond said seventy odd page essay.

 

But I was curious; Had Dawn found something I'd missed, in all my constant studying of the 'Trap Laws', for both professional and personal interests? It seems not. It seems ye've just happened upon yet More " Weasle words " from that infamous Government Dept. Sort of stuff their 'Spin Doctors' chuck out to appease the less astutely studious, perhaps?

 

Please now check the Letter of the Law, Here.. That, in case ye missed it the first time, is the LAW. It says, of the Aldrich Foot Snare; " The trap shall be used only for the purpose of killing or taking large, non-indigenous, mammalian carnivores. " Doesn't mention Winnie the Pooh. Doesn't mention escaped animals ~ as the Hunting Act. very specifically does, I believe? In fact, ye laws around such matters tend to be So inclusive, they cover Every eventuallity in their thoroughness, no?

 

Whatever. Here's a random example of the sort of criteria laid down by the above Order. I picked the Fenn traps simply because I have a long standing 'connection' with them. But it's typical of how 'sewn up' they have each traps usage:

 

Fenn: " The traps shall be used only for the purpose of killing or taking grey squirrels, stoats, weasels, rats, mice and other small ground vermin (except for those species listed in Schedules 5 and 6 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981) and set in natural or artificial tunnels, which are, in either case, suitable for the purpose. "

 

Wow! And there's No mention of released. Zoo. Non Indiginous or any other creatures, see? That Order's Very clear and specific.

 

And No Where does it mention " Escaped Zoo Animals ". Tigger. Or even Winnie the Pooh.

 

Dawn; It sounds like more Bullshit from Defra to me. Honestly it does. They don't Make the laws. They're just putting their spin on them, 'in translation'. Call Defra and ask them where the person writing that seventy odd pages got that " Escaped Zoo Animals " bit from. Tell them someone out here is Seriously fasinated to hear

 

 

 

 

Maybe slip in that it's an old friend of Q's? That should make one or two 'Upstairs' look up!

[bowers1986 3]

Never seen one myself or met anyone that claims to have seen one but would be great if these did actually exist??

Edited November 9, 2007 by bowers1986

[Dawn B 212]

The trap shall be used only for the purpose of killing or taking large, non-indigenous, mammalian carnivores.

Yes I know it says that, but thats what they are designed for, to catch large mammals. I must be missing something as the LAW says they are lisenced ONLY for use in the above, " i.e for the recapture of escaped zoo animals" I think you're reading a bit much into that. It would be pointless and a lie to say they were for the use of catching Rabbits wouldnt it? The truth is they arent, they are used to catch large non-indigenous mammals. However, nowhere can I find that it says "for the use of catching Big cats roaming in our countryside"

 

Breeding. Yes I mentioned it, how else (given that you yourself said the guy that watched his dog get killed by one had a "kit" with it) would they still be here? Given that most of the captures of escaped/released pets were in the eighties, are you suggesting that the cats roaming our Countryside are adults that are just there? They must get there somehow and I find the mere thought of people still keeping them as easily as before and releasing these animals regularly enough to back up the amount of sightings, quite ridiculous.

 

I also find it strange that about 70-8 0 % of sightings are of black "Panthers" or melanistic Leopards. These are the most difficult to breed in captivity, needing animals carrying the melanistic gene. Yet we are asked to believe (again going with the "kit theory" that more than one, male and female, both parents carrying the melanistic gene, are living and breeding in our countryside!! Not one normal Leopard as far as I can see has ever been seen.

 

And whats wrong with Winnie the Pooh!!

[BlueCoyote 0]

just a few questions/observations of my own and not directed at anyone in particular....

Hounds, i thought, were supposed to ignore other animals except the animals they were trained to go after.. if a pack of hounds are chasing a fox or rabbit or squirrel or deer .. would they ALSO turn around and chase a stray heifer out of the field if they crossed her path? From my experience with scent hounds is that normally their masters will severely scold the ignorant young pup if he deviates from the pack to chase something unfamiliar.... the hunter doesnt assume his hound in training has picked up the trail of big foot... he assumes instead that the dog is being a butt headed puppy and needs to get back to work.

 

On the topic of big cats AND hounds though.. where i live the Florida Panther has supposedly been extinct for a few decades but the locals know otherwise. the government will NOT admit to anything either! but my uncle, when he was a young man, was out coon hunting with a friend along a riverbank... they turned their blue tick hound loose.. a seasoned dog in hunting coons i might add.. they waited for him to hit on a scent.. Only instead they heard the most God awful scream.. followed shortly by the sounds of a very upset, well shaken and terrified hound! the dog was obviously not going to take chances with what ever made that scream so he made tracks for safety.. coons be damned! my uncle and his friend knew what it was that screamed and seeing as how they werent in any position to tangle with a panther, they decided to go home for the night.

Fast forward a few more years... in the same area.. my aunt was on her way home and saw a panther on the side of the road just having a look around. still a couple of more years later, and in this same area my own husband was driving home and saw a panther leap across a four lane high way.. not sure how many feet that is, but he cleared it in two bounds before he disappeared into the woods.

I've never seen a Florida Panther myself.. the ones in the local Native Wildlife Museum are imported from California.. they're huge compared to a Florida Panther.. which are about the size of a border collie... truth be told, they arent big at all... most things in Florida arent very large anyway.. Red Wolves, Key Deer, all very small..

 

Another thing i wonder is... how come no one will actually get a pack of seasoned hounds that are trained specifically to track down and tree big cats? I mean come on!! Scientists are always trying to prove, or disprove the Lock Ness Monster! spending all kinds of money on fancy scientific gizmos and gadgets... why hasnt anyone spent the money to bring in a couple of Montana Mountain Lion Scent Hounds? even if it isnt a mountain lion.. it could be a leopard.. tiger.. african lion.. or even an jaguar(they come in black too and also hide their prey up in trees) its still a big cat.. it shouldnt be too hard to get the hounds to pick up a scent.. IF there is a scent.. ?

[alimac 882]

as your ref in your thread to buying smack, your right i guess in that just because we have not seen them it dont mean that there not there, but on the same note it must be the case that just because people on a hunting forum say there are then there must be then eh ??

 

as its been said before, my mate seen one but didnt have a camera , get over it... etc etc well we dont belive in big cats so as you say , get over it mate... i feel your being derogitary to her calling her narrow minded just because she states that until there is PROOF then she will remain sceptical on wether or not there is big cats out there ..

 

and yes you could be right in that the goverment could well be covering things up, but i for one would guess that alot of there info comes from the hunting faternity, people like us.. us being the ones that spend more hours out doors than most if not all theres reserchers etc, and between us on a large scale hunting forum cant thread the slightest string of FACTUAL evidence together...

 

 

just to many what ifs for me

 

i look forward to you long winded replie

[Guest Ditch_Shitter]

The trap shall be used only for the purpose of killing or taking large, non-indigenous, mammalian carnivores.

Yes I know it says that, but thats what they are designed for, to catch large mammals. I must be missing something as the LAW says they are lisenced ONLY for use in the above, " i.e for the recapture of escaped zoo animals" I think you're reading a bit much into that. It would be pointless and a lie to say they were for the use of catching Rabbits wouldnt it? The truth is they arent, they are used to catch large non-indigenous mammals. However, nowhere can I find that it says "for the use of catching Big cats roaming in our countryside"

 

 

Dawn; I pointed you Directly, in the link above, to what the law says. Did ye not even look at it? It Doesn't mention anything about " Zoo animals ". Period. That's a Very specific piece if legislation too. It picks and chooses Exactly what may be taken with what trap. It's not my fault. I didn't draft it. It's how it is. The brit' government felt they had to allow for the trap to cover a circumstance. If that circumstance had been 'Escaped Zoo Animals' (which, to the best of my knowledge have always been shot with tranquilisers or live rounds, primarily because they tend to be confused and more easily approached, I'd imagine), the very carefully worded legislation would have stated that. It doesn't. It's there in black and white.

 

Black Panthers? You're at it again! Are you perhaps addressing someone else here whose words I've somehow missed? Only I've clearly stated, at least once, my complete personal belief that there are NO " Black Panthers " roaming britain. Honestly; I'll believe there are leopards in britain about the same time as I start believing there are yellow bears who talk

 

Come to that; A leopard Is a " Big Cat ". Couger isn't. It's a scientific distinction. This is why I'm loathe to talk of " Big Cats " on the loose.

 

Regards breeding? In the original and fuller reports I've read - and which, I'm sure, will still be out there somewhere - the guy who whitnessed the slaying of his Dog stated there was an adult and what he took to be a youngster. Where the kit was born is a matter open to further conjecture. But I must ask you to please keep to the facts of what I'm saying here: I've never stated I believe cats are Breeding either. That's not to say I don't think that possible. It's just that you're constantly putting words into my mouth here.

 

All I've really said on this thread may be summed up as follows, look: A guy I know and trust convinced me he saw a couger and a f. chausse at liberty. The british government are capable of smoke and mirrors when it suits them. The Aldrich is lisenced according to the letter of the law. Boosh! I really can't help anyones opinion of the veracity of a man they know absolutely nothing about. I find it stunning that so many people should be arguing that the government don't tell lies. The law is there to be read.

 

Al; The bloke (my friend) for whose use the Aldrich was actually lisenced, could have been classed as both 'Hunter' and 'Researcher'. He was also an accomplished Cat Trapper and He presented enough 'strung, factual evidence' to the govt. that they quietly lisenced his favoured tool. I'm genuinely sorry that ye never got to know the guy. I wish to god there was a chance ye could now. But he is, sadly, dead. As to what evidence convinced the govt.? Ask them, I s'pose. Though I won't be holding my breath for their reply.

 

" Long winded " ? Thorough

[Dawn B 212]

Felis Chaus (not Felix chausse, but i think you mean the same animal )is the Jungle Cat, these Cats are used in the breeding of domestic Cats, so yes I can understand one being seen, having escaped.

 

DS, I am addressing points YOU have raised, YOU raised the point about a large black Cat killing the whippet and the fact it had a kit with it, so I answered to what you wrote, I just cant win can I. I answer things you raise, whether you personally believe them is not for me to question, but when I reply, I get told, you didnt say this or you dont believe that!

 

I think ill end by saying I dont believe big cats of ANY description are living and breeding in the wild in the UK. Apart from the odd escaped pet in years gone by there is NO conclusive proof that they are living here among us. However there IS conclusive proof that many of the attacks and sightings people claim to see are proved wrong. Untill such time I (and many others) can see the proof in front of us, my feelings stand.

[Tyla 3,179]

just a few questions/observations of my own and not directed at anyone in particular....

Hounds, i thought, were supposed to ignore other animals except the animals they were trained to go after.. if a pack of hounds are chasing a fox or rabbit or squirrel or deer .. would they ALSO turn around and chase a stray heifer out of the field if they crossed her path? From my experience with scent hounds is that normally their masters will severely scold the ignorant young pup if he deviates from the pack to chase something unfamiliar.... the hunter doesnt assume his hound in training has picked up the trail of big foot... he assumes instead that the dog is being a butt headed puppy and needs to get back to work.

 

On the topic of big cats AND hounds though.. where i live the Florida Panther has supposedly been extinct for a few decades but the locals know otherwise. the government will NOT admit to anything either! but my uncle, when he was a young man, was out coon hunting with a friend along a riverbank... they turned their blue tick hound loose.. a seasoned dog in hunting coons i might add.. they waited for him to hit on a scent.. Only instead they heard the most God awful scream.. followed shortly by the sounds of a very upset, well shaken and terrified hound! the dog was obviously not going to take chances with what ever made that scream so he made tracks for safety.. coons be damned! my uncle and his friend knew what it was that screamed and seeing as how they werent in any position to tangle with a panther, they decided to go home for the night.

Fast forward a few more years... in the same area.. my aunt was on her way home and saw a panther on the side of the road just having a look around. still a couple of more years later, and in this same area my own husband was driving home and saw a panther leap across a four lane high way.. not sure how many feet that is, but he cleared it in two bounds before he disappeared into the woods.

I've never seen a Florida Panther myself.. the ones in the local Native Wildlife Museum are imported from California.. they're huge compared to a Florida Panther.. which are about the size of a border collie... truth be told, they arent big at all... most things in Florida arent very large anyway.. Red Wolves, Key Deer, all very small..

 

Another thing i wonder is... how come no one will actually get a pack of seasoned hounds that are trained specifically to track down and tree big cats? I mean come on!! Scientists are always trying to prove, or disprove the Lock Ness Monster! spending all kinds of money on fancy scientific gizmos and gadgets... why hasnt anyone spent the money to bring in a couple of Montana Mountain Lion Scent Hounds? even if it isnt a mountain lion.. it could be a leopard.. tiger.. african lion.. or even an jaguar(they come in black too and also hide their prey up in trees) its still a big cat.. it shouldnt be too hard to get the hounds to pick up a scent.. IF there is a scent.. ?

 

Wow! i have just realised how lucky i am, when my family were on holiday in wachula, fl about 20 years ago (i was 8 so details are a tad hazy) we saw a puma on the side of the highway. i remember that part distinctly and i has stuck with me ever since. We knew they were rare but didnt know they were supposed to be extinct. A bit off the thread i know but pleased me no end

[Dawn B 212]

Good reading Blue Coyote.

[Guest shaheen]

http://www.washingtonlionhunts.com/

 

Bit of info with hounds on Puma's.

 

Shaheen

[BlueCoyote 0]

Wow! i have just realised how lucky i am, when my family were on holiday in wachula, fl about 20 years ago (i was 8 so details are a tad hazy) we saw a puma on the side of the highway. i remember that part distinctly and i has stuck with me ever since. We knew they were rare but didnt know they were supposed to be extinct. A bit off the thread i know but pleased me no end

actually in that area at that time there should have been a half way decent population. unless you meant Wakulla lol (where i'm from which is in the big bend area along the coast) It doesnt make sense for the Florida gov. to spend all that money to raise and repopulate freakin MIAMI with lions either!! unless they are trying to scare off any new illegal aliens... theres far to many people there. and the last time i checked, last summer, there were only 60 documented cats in the nature preserve. they've altered highways, rivers, built bridges... and still having a fit trying to save these animals.. too many people. wrong area.. just.. wrong.

 

The place where my aunt and uncle and husband saw the panthers was in Jefferson county... and of all the places i've been to it wouldnt surprise me if there were still panthers there.. Ted Turner owns a large plantation there and has been noted to own some large cats(imports though). one may have escaped at some point. Still... if the big shots in florida wanted to revive our cats they should choose a better location than stupid miami...

Also Florida panthers can come in black. also denied.. but has been proven by a hunter holding up his dead black florida panther. anything can come in black.. just they can come in white. its just genetics and nothing spectacular.

 

 

anyway.. all that aside.. i think it would be interesting to find a big cat in the UK. i wont say yes or no to there actually BEING cats there or if they are native or escaped.. i certainly cant dispute what someone saw with their own eyes though.

 

but i will say.. my camera is almost a part of me i take it with me everywhere i go because its fun to take pictures. but i am never lucky enough to see anything totally bizarre that would make the news

[macberran 2]

Cotote, do they really stick al those cats in jam nae wunner their scarce!!!!!!