Brown Bread

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

Dogs don't really need carbs. But don't worry, you'll see them again on the kennel floor.

Nonsense fella. I dropped all carbs out of my old bitches diet for a period of 6 weeks while working her and she just couldn't keep the weight on. Regardless of upping the meat and fat. Soon as I reintroduced carbs she was bouncing again and looked great within a few days.

 

I know what science says about dogs not needing carbs. But sometimes trying things yourself and experimenting with what SUITS YOUR DOG is the way to go.

 

Brown bread, sardines in tomatoe, honey and goats milk. Proper breakfast for a working mutt.

[Mickey Finn 3,011]

 

Dogs don't really need carbs. But don't worry, you'll see them again on the kennel floor.

Nonsense fella. I dropped all carbs out of my old bitches diet for a period of 6 weeks while working her and she just couldn't keep the weight on. Regardless of upping the meat and fat. Soon as I reintroduced carbs she was bouncing again and looked great within a few days.

 

I know what science says about dogs not needing carbs. But sometimes trying things yourself and experimenting with what SUITS YOUR DOG is the way to go.

 

Brown bread, sardines in tomatoe, honey and goats milk. Proper breakfast for a working mutt.

 

Ok.

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

 

 

 

Dogs don't really need carbs. But don't worry, you'll see them again on the kennel floor.

Nonsense fella. I dropped all carbs out of my old bitches diet for a period of 6 weeks while working her and she just couldn't keep the weight on. Regardless of upping the meat and fat. Soon as I reintroduced carbs she was bouncing again and looked great within a few days.

 

I know what science says about dogs not needing carbs. But sometimes trying things yourself and experimenting with what SUITS YOUR DOG is the way to go.

 

Brown bread, sardines in tomatoe, honey and goats milk. Proper breakfast for a working mutt.

Ok.

If you disagree then why don't you enlighten us a little?

[bunnys 1,228]

I suppose the answer lies with the whats suits thy individual animal best and ther be those that have come accustomed to wheat gluten etc, and when this his taken always they suffer in body condition and ther be those that an all meat bone diet suit and when gluten wheat added suffer for it with the squirts etc all in all animals need a few mths etc to become accustomed in a complete change and his best done through the closed season brown bread was commonly used and a good filler back always I used it with tripe and had great energy levels from the animals ,like has most grub the beta the quality the less they need and today we all have the privilege if not the wealth to choose what we wish ta feed our animals I would expect ta feed 2 fifty pound animals quite well on a pound coin a day.atbbunnys

[Mickey Finn 3,011]

 

 

 

Dogs don't really need carbs. But don't worry, you'll see them again on the kennel floor.

Nonsense fella. I dropped all carbs out of my old bitches diet for a period of 6 weeks while working her and she just couldn't keep the weight on. Regardless of upping the meat and fat. Soon as I reintroduced carbs she was bouncing again and looked great within a few days.

 

I know what science says about dogs not needing carbs. But sometimes trying things yourself and experimenting with what SUITS YOUR DOG is the way to go.

 

Brown bread, sardines in tomatoe, honey and goats milk. Proper breakfast for a working mutt.

Ok.

If you disagree then why don't you enlighten us a little?

 

I'm not sure what you want me to say. I posted what I knew to be true and you said nonsense.

 

ATB

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

 

 

 

 

 

Dogs don't really need carbs. But don't worry, you'll see them again on the kennel floor.

Nonsense fella. I dropped all carbs out of my old bitches diet for a period of 6 weeks while working her and she just couldn't keep the weight on. Regardless of upping the meat and fat. Soon as I reintroduced carbs she was bouncing again and looked great within a few days.

 

I know what science says about dogs not needing carbs. But sometimes trying things yourself and experimenting with what SUITS YOUR DOG is the way to go.

 

Brown bread, sardines in tomatoe, honey and goats milk. Proper breakfast for a working mutt.

Ok.

If you disagree then why don't you enlighten us a little?

I'm not sure what you want me to say. I posted what I knew to be true and you said nonsense.

 

ATB

All you said was dogs don't need carbs. I explained why I think they do. I was hoping you could explain why you think they don't. From experience or just what you have read somewhere?

[The one 8,467]

We go to Tesco at 9pm just as they do the cheap stuff brown breads 2pence a loaf i filled four carrier bags for a quid dogs getting four slices each a day mixed in with other stuff

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

We go to Tesco at 9pm just as they do the cheap stuff brown breads 2pence a loaf i filled four carrier bags for a quid dogs getting four slices each a day mixed in with other stuff

That's the way to do it ?

[jeemes 4,479]

Bread is a filler like pasta.. If you fed your dog on meat and it lost weight it meant more flesh was required. Im not saying you shouldnt feed bread or whatever you want but to say a dog cant live by just meat is wrong. Hunt kennels with a good round will feed flesh only.. For most of us flesh only is too expensive and or too much effort.Most folk just want to feed from a bag,and mostly there dogs are too fat.

 

Micky Finn

Are you American? I have never found a chapter in an American dog book on feeding flesh,apart from the old fighting dog books..Mostly they talk about what bags to feed out of..Do you feed flesh? and in what form if you dont mind me asking? I mean whole carcass,minced etc

[Mickey Finn 3,011]

 

 

 

 

 

Dogs don't really need carbs. But don't worry, you'll see them again on the kennel floor.

Nonsense fella. I dropped all carbs out of my old bitches diet for a period of 6 weeks while working her and she just couldn't keep the weight on. Regardless of upping the meat and fat. Soon as I reintroduced carbs she was bouncing again and looked great within a few days.

 

I know what science says about dogs not needing carbs. But sometimes trying things yourself and experimenting with what SUITS YOUR DOG is the way to go.

 

Brown bread, sardines in tomatoe, honey and goats milk. Proper breakfast for a working mutt.

Ok.

If you disagree then why don't you enlighten us a little?

I'm not sure what you want me to say. I posted what I knew to be true and you said nonsense.

 

ATB

All you said was dogs don't need carbs. I explained why I think they do. I was hoping you could explain why you think they don't. From experience or just what you have read somewhere?

 

Gaz, I've no idea why your dog lost weight. My dogs run pretty lean at the end of the season. The reason is I can't shovel feed to them fast enough. Their activity out paces their ability to absorb nutrition. It's the same for bear and coyote hounds over here.

 

What you explained was that you knew what science said but preferred to experiment on your own.

 

I say OK.

[Mickey Finn 3,011]

Bread is a filler like pasta.. If you fed your dog on meat and it lost weight it meant more flesh was required. Im not saying you shouldnt feed bread or whatever you want but to say a dog cant live by just meat is wrong. Hunt kennels with a good round will feed flesh only.. For most of us flesh only is too expensive and or too much effort.Most folk just want to feed from a bag,and mostly there dogs are too fat.

 

Micky Finn

Are you American? I have never found a chapter in an American dog book on feeding flesh,apart from the old fighting dog books..Mostly they talk about what bags to feed out of..Do you feed flesh? and in what form if you dont mind me asking? I mean whole carcass,minced etc

Hi jeems, I'm an American ,and can say that being too fat is a common problem over here. I feed 30/20 dry. For disclosure sake, it's the brand that sponsors our breed club. But there are other brands of 30/20 that are also excellent. I do think it is easier to stay consistent by feeding dry.

 

ATB

[paddybarr 77]

 

 

 

Dogs don't really need carbs. But don't worry, you'll see them again on the kennel floor.

Nonsense fella. I dropped all carbs out of my old bitches diet for a period of 6 weeks while working her and she just couldn't keep the weight on. Regardless of upping the meat and fat. Soon as I reintroduced carbs she was bouncing again and looked great within a few days.

 

I know what science says about dogs not needing carbs. But sometimes trying things yourself and experimenting with what SUITS YOUR DOG is the way to go.

 

Brown bread, sardines in tomatoe, honey and goats milk. Proper breakfast for a working mutt.

Ok.

If you disagree then why don't you enlighten us a little?

 

Science ---- with all the references

 

In humans, high carbohydrate diets increase stamina because they increase muscle glycogen (Hultman et al. 1994). In dogs, however, high fat/low carbohydrate diets increase stamina. Beagles ran for 20 miles (140 min) when fed high fat (53–67% of energy) diets but became exhausted after only 15 miles (100 min) when fed a moderate fat (29% of energy) diet (Downey et al. 1980). A high fat/high protein diet containing no carbohydrate resulted in better performance and less evidence of exertional rhabdomyolysis when fed to sled dogs (Kronfeld 1973). A high carbohydrate (59% of energy) low fat (16% of energy) diet fed to sled dogs resulted in higher resting muscle glycogen concentrations compared with a high fat (62% of energy), low carbohydrate (14% of energy) diet, but glycogen was used more rapidly during a race; thus the final muscle glycogen concentration was unchanged (Reynolds et al. 1996).

In dogs, as in other species, fat oxidation provides most of the energy at low rates of energy expenditure (60% at 40% of maximal oxygen uptake; VO_{2 max}). As exercise intensity increases, glucose oxidation increases, whereas fat oxidation remains constant so that glucose oxidation is the principle source of energy at high rates of energy expenditure (% at 85% VO_{2 max}) (Weibel et al. 1996). In dogs, however, the amount of energy from fat oxidation at rest and during exercise is twice that in less aerobic species such as humans and goats (McLelland et al. 1994, Meyer and Doty 1988). Albumin binds more free fatty acids in dogs than in less aerobic species; thus the concentration of free fatty acids in the blood is higher and delivery of free fatty acids to the tissues is enhanced (McLelland et al. 1994). Muscle glycogen and fat stores are larger in dogs than in less aerobic species (Weibel et al. 1996). High fat diets increase resting serum triglycerides and free fatty acids, mitochondrial volume and maximal energy expenditure (Reynolds et al. 1996).

No study has looked at the effect of different types of fat on performance. Exercise increased the plasma concentration of each individual fatty acid in proportion to the plasma concentration of that fatty acid at rest, i.e., oleate (18:1), the predominant fatty acid, increased 150%, which was more of an increase than palmitate (16:1), which increased more than linoleate (18:2), which increased more than stearate (18:0) (Miller et al. 1963).

It is much less clear whether greyhounds should be fed a high fat or high carbohydrate diet. Anaerobic glycogenolysis and glycolysis rather than fat oxidation should provide most of the energy for a sprint race >500 m that lasts only 30 s. Greyhounds develop a marked lactic acidosis (pH 7.0–7.1) and muscle glycogen declines markedly during a race (Rose and Bloomberg 1989); consequently, some authors have suggested that carbohydrate may improve performance (Gannon 1987). Nevertheless, most muscle fibers in greyhounds are of the high oxidative type; high fat diets may therefore increase maximal fat oxidation, total maximal energy expenditure and performance in greyhounds as in sled dogs. One brief report suggests that greyhounds run faster when fed a moderate fat (31% of energy) diet compared with a very high fat (75% of energy) diet (Toll et al. 1992). One abstract suggests that greyhounds run faster when fed a high fat (38% of energy) diet compared with a moderate fat (28% of energy) diet (Hill et al. 1996). These two studies together suggest that optimum performance may be achieved in greyhounds by feeding a moderately high fat diet.

Protein.

Racing sled dogs require a high protein diet because an anemia develops during training in dogs fed a low protein diet. Hematocrit declined in dogs fed a diet containing 28% of energy as protein but not in dogs fed a diet containing ≥32% of energy as protein (Kronfeld et al. 1977). Plasma volume was greater in racing sled dogs fed a very high protein (>40% of energy) diet (Reynolds 1995). This “sports anemia” was also more marked in dogs fed a vegetable protein diet compared with an animal protein diet (Yamada et al. 1987). Greyhounds, however, ran more slowly when fed increased dietary protein (36 vs. 24% of energy) (Hill et al. 1998).

Fiber.

Dietary fiber may have some health benefits for racing dogs. Volatile fatty acids produced by bacterial fermentation of soluble fiber in the canine colon promote water and electrolyte absorption (Herschel et al. 1981). Butyrate is the preferred fuel of the canine colonocyte (Roediger and Rae 1982). Rapid fermentation of oligosaccharides may decrease colonic pH and inhibit Clostridial growth promoted by feeding meat (Amtsberg et al. 1989). Fructooligosaccharides inhibit cecal colonization by Salmonella spp. in chickens (Bailey et al. 1991). Nevertheless, the colon is a complex ecosystem. The digestibility of carbohydrate in extruded dog foods is variable, and not all starch is digested in the canine small intestine (Schünemann et al. 1989). The concentration of volatile fatty acids is high in the colon of dogs fed meat and cornstarch diets containing no fiber (Hill 1993). Increased dietary fiber increases fecal weight and reduces nutrient availability. The benefits of additional fiber in canine athletes are, therefore, uncertain.

Minerals and vitamins.

Meat is deficient in trace minerals and vitamins. Many dog owners feed vitamin supplements but take no account of vitamins and minerals already present in the food; thus toxicity is possible. Most commercial pet foods contain sufficient vitamins and minerals for sedentary dogs, but this balance of vitamins and minerals may have to be altered for exercising dogs. It is likely that endurance racing dogs, which consume large amounts of food, may require less vitamins and minerals per joule than greyhounds, which consume little more food, vitamins and minerals than sedentary dogs.

Gannon (1980) has suggested that exertional rhabdomyolysis may occur in greyhounds that are raced too frequently because the recurrent acidosis that follows each race increases potassium loss in the urine and leads to intracellular potassium deficiency. This seems unlikely, however, because Knochel et al. (1985) found that training increased intracellular potassium, skeletal sarcolemmal sodium:potassium ATPase activity and the muscle membrane potential, but reduced plasma potassium concentrations and reduced the increase in plasma potassium concentration after exercise.

Some vitamins, particularly antioxidant vitamins, may have a pharmacologic action during exercise. The antioxidant vitamins E and C may inhibit free radical production in skeletal muscle during rigorous exercise (Jenkins 1988). Very large doses of vitamin E are often given to racing dogs but an appropriate dose is unknown. Vitamin C is not an essential nutrient in sedentary dogs and is present in fresh meat but may also be conditionally essential in racing sled dogs. Signs of scurvy were observed in sled dogs fed stored frozen meat for long periods (Butson 1973). These signs were prevented by feeding fresh meat. A decrease in plasma ascorbate in racing sled dogs was also prevented by administering 4 mg/(kJ ⋅ d) by mouth (Kronfeld and Donoghue 1988). The oxidation of fat when meat is stored may also increase this requirement for antioxidants.

Other additives.

Several food additives, including dimethyl glycine (DMG), pangamic acid (vitamin B-15), arginine, tryptophan, aspartate, carnitine, creatine/ATP and bicarbonate have been suggested to improve the performance of racing dogs. To date, no controlled studies have shown any benefit. Gannon found that DMG and diisopropylammonium dichloroacetic acid (DIPA-DCA) reduced the race time of greyhounds (Gannon and Kendall 1982). Pangamic acid or vitamin B-15 is a substance of uncertain composition. It consists of an ester of DMG and gluconic acid but may include DIPA-DCA (Herbert 1988). The beneficial effects described by Gannon can probably be ascribed to dichloroacetic acid, a potent drug that activates pyruvate dehydrogenase and reduces lactic acidosis caused by exercise in dogs (Merrill et al. 1980). The appropriate dose is uncertain, and neurologic, hepatic, testicular, pulmonary and pancreatitic toxicities have been described in dogs (Cicmanec et al. 1991). Both DMG and DIPA-DCA are considered “unsafe food additives”; thus their use cannot be recommended (Herbert 1988).

[paddybarr 77]

More science

 

In humans, high carbohydrate diets increase stamina because they increase muscle glycogen (Hultman et al. 1994). In dogs, however, high fat/low carbohydrate diets increase stamina. Beagles ran for 20 miles (140 min) when fed high fat (53–67% of energy) diets but became exhausted after only 15 miles (100 min) when fed a moderate fat (29% of energy) diet (Downey et al. 1980). A high fat/high protein diet containing no carbohydrate resulted in better performance and less evidence of exertional rhabdomyolysis when fed to sled dogs (Kronfeld 1973). A high carbohydrate (59% of energy) low fat (16% of energy) diet fed to sled dogs resulted in higher resting muscle glycogen concentrations compared with a high fat (62% of energy), low carbohydrate (14% of energy) diet, but glycogen was used more rapidly during a race; thus the final muscle glycogen concentration was unchanged (Reynolds et al. 1996).

In dogs, as in other species, fat oxidation provides most of the energy at low rates of energy expenditure (60% at 40% of maximal oxygen uptake; VO_{2 max}). As exercise intensity increases, glucose oxidation increases, whereas fat oxidation remains constant so that glucose oxidation is the principle source of energy at high rates of energy expenditure (% at 85% VO_{2 max}) (Weibel et al. 1996). In dogs, however, the amount of energy from fat oxidation at rest and during exercise is twice that in less aerobic species such as humans and goats (McLelland et al. 1994, Meyer and Doty 1988). Albumin binds more free fatty acids in dogs than in less aerobic species; thus the concentration of free fatty acids in the blood is higher and delivery of free fatty acids to the tissues is enhanced (McLelland et al. 1994). Muscle glycogen and fat stores are larger in dogs than in less aerobic species (Weibel et al. 1996). High fat diets increase resting serum triglycerides and free fatty acids, mitochondrial volume and maximal energy expenditure (Reynolds et al. 1996).

No study has looked at the effect of different types of fat on performance. Exercise increased the plasma concentration of each individual fatty acid in proportion to the plasma concentration of that fatty acid at rest, i.e., oleate (18:1), the predominant fatty acid, increased 150%, which was more of an increase than palmitate (16:1), which increased more than linoleate (18:2), which increased more than stearate (18:0) (Miller et al. 1963).

It is much less clear whether greyhounds should be fed a high fat or high carbohydrate diet. Anaerobic glycogenolysis and glycolysis rather than fat oxidation should provide most of the energy for a sprint race >500 m that lasts only 30 s. Greyhounds develop a marked lactic acidosis (pH 7.0–7.1) and muscle glycogen declines markedly during a race (Rose and Bloomberg 1989); consequently, some authors have suggested that carbohydrate may improve performance (Gannon 1987). Nevertheless, most muscle fibers in greyhounds are of the high oxidative type; high fat diets may therefore increase maximal fat oxidation, total maximal energy expenditure and performance in greyhounds as in sled dogs. One brief report suggests that greyhounds run faster when fed a moderate fat (31% of energy) diet compared with a very high fat (75% of energy) diet (Toll et al. 1992). One abstract suggests that greyhounds run faster when fed a high fat (38% of energy) diet compared with a moderate fat (28% of energy) diet (Hill et al. 1996). These two studies together suggest that optimum performance may be achieved in greyhounds by feeding a moderately high fat diet.

Protein.

Racing sled dogs require a high protein diet because an anemia develops during training in dogs fed a low protein diet. Hematocrit declined in dogs fed a diet containing 28% of energy as protein but not in dogs fed a diet containing ≥32% of energy as protein (Kronfeld et al. 1977). Plasma volume was greater in racing sled dogs fed a very high protein (>40% of energy) diet (Reynolds 1995). This “sports anemia” was also more marked in dogs fed a vegetable protein diet compared with an animal protein diet (Yamada et al. 1987). Greyhounds, however, ran more slowly when fed increased dietary protein (36 vs. 24% of energy) (Hill et al. 1998).

Fiber.

Dietary fiber may have some health benefits for racing dogs. Volatile fatty acids produced by bacterial fermentation of soluble fiber in the canine colon promote water and electrolyte absorption (Herschel et al. 1981). Butyrate is the preferred fuel of the canine colonocyte (Roediger and Rae 1982). Rapid fermentation of oligosaccharides may decrease colonic pH and inhibit Clostridial growth promoted by feeding meat (Amtsberg et al. 1989). Fructooligosaccharides inhibit cecal colonization by Salmonella spp. in chickens (Bailey et al. 1991). Nevertheless, the colon is a complex ecosystem. The digestibility of carbohydrate in extruded dog foods is variable, and not all starch is digested in the canine small intestine (Schünemann et al. 1989). The concentration of volatile fatty acids is high in the colon of dogs fed meat and cornstarch diets containing no fiber (Hill 1993). Increased dietary fiber increases fecal weight and reduces nutrient availability. The benefits of additional fiber in canine athletes are, therefore, uncertain.

Minerals and vitamins.

Meat is deficient in trace minerals and vitamins. Many dog owners feed vitamin supplements but take no account of vitamins and minerals already present in the food; thus toxicity is possible. Most commercial pet foods contain sufficient vitamins and minerals for sedentary dogs, but this balance of vitamins and minerals may have to be altered for exercising dogs. It is likely that endurance racing dogs, which consume large amounts of food, may require less vitamins and minerals per joule than greyhounds, which consume little more food, vitamins and minerals than sedentary dogs.

Gannon (1980) has suggested that exertional rhabdomyolysis may occur in greyhounds that are raced too frequently because the recurrent acidosis that follows each race increases potassium loss in the urine and leads to intracellular potassium deficiency. This seems unlikely, however, because Knochel et al. (1985) found that training increased intracellular potassium, skeletal sarcolemmal sodium:potassium ATPase activity and the muscle membrane potential, but reduced plasma potassium concentrations and reduced the increase in plasma potassium concentration after exercise.

Some vitamins, particularly antioxidant vitamins, may have a pharmacologic action during exercise. The antioxidant vitamins E and C may inhibit free radical production in skeletal muscle during rigorous exercise (Jenkins 1988). Very large doses of vitamin E are often given to racing dogs but an appropriate dose is unknown. Vitamin C is not an essential nutrient in sedentary dogs and is present in fresh meat but may also be conditionally essential in racing sled dogs. Signs of scurvy were observed in sled dogs fed stored frozen meat for long periods (Butson 1973). These signs were prevented by feeding fresh meat. A decrease in plasma ascorbate in racing sled dogs was also prevented by administering 4 mg/(kJ ⋅ d) by mouth (Kronfeld and Donoghue 1988). The oxidation of fat when meat is stored may also increase this requirement for antioxidants.

Other additives.

Several food additives, including dimethyl glycine (DMG), pangamic acid (vitamin B-15), arginine, tryptophan, aspartate, carnitine, creatine/ATP and bicarbonate have been suggested to improve the performance of racing dogs. To date, no controlled studies have shown any benefit. Gannon found that DMG and diisopropylammonium dichloroacetic acid (DIPA-DCA) reduced the race time of greyhounds (Gannon and Kendall 1982). Pangamic acid or vitamin B-15 is a substance of uncertain composition. It consists of an ester of DMG and gluconic acid but may include DIPA-DCA (Herbert 1988). The beneficial effects described by Gannon can probably be ascribed to dichloroacetic acid, a potent drug that activates pyruvate dehydrogenase and reduces lactic acidosis caused by exercise in dogs (Merrill et al. 1980). The appropriate dose is uncertain, and neurologic, hepatic, testicular, pulmonary and pancreatitic toxicities have been described in dogs (Cicmanec et al. 1991). Both DMG and DIPA-DCA are considered “unsafe food additives”; thus their use cannot be recommended (Herbert 1988).

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

Paddybarr - nobody is gonna read that lot mate. I sure ain't. Who do you agree with?

 

Mickey Finn 1 - I can't believe a man who feeds rubbish dry food from a bag is questioning my feeding methods.

[mushroom 12,878]

Lol I feed my twat potatoes, carrots and even this weekend colliflour along with his meat. What harm is carbs gonna Do from brown bread?