Air Rifles Going Over Power

[j j m 6,553]

Take it back to the shop mate let them sort it out

[Dr B 186]

If its over, the shop cannot return the gun to you unless you have an FAC. However, a good shop will adjust it for you and make it legal (may take a few days). The police are, on the whole, not involved in this process as it can happen by accident. The shop will sort it

Edited March 12, 2015 by Dr B

[VWman 232]

Just to confirm that I don't have my own air rifle, I am using other peoples rifles on private land to try out different guns.

The main one that I am using is a 10 or so year old HW97.

I am trying different guns as the shooters on the farm are bringing them in, most of these guys are shot gun guys that have air rifles from years ago.

I am not trying to wind anyone up but have to say it's a bit scary for a new guy to get his head around and believe me when I say that I have been working very hard to check out what I should or should not do.

One of you said you are not here to tell people how to wind up the power on airguns, it's my opinion that only an idiot would do that.

I am sure that for people who want to do that sort of there would be a how to on google search.

I was asking because I want to do the right thing and be advised by the right people.

[VWman 232]

I have picked up some real good point so far that I would not of thought of and will buy some checking gear before I buy.

I think I will buy a new rifle and it's looking like the HW? is the one for me.

[charlie caller 3,654]

Alright gentlemen let's get this query in a legal perspective of how the law currently works on air rifle power issues.. I hope this is not going to sound boring but, I've known some decent chaps fall foul of the law on their air rifles' performance in my time. And it's not funny..

 

VWman have you actually bought a rifle yet? In the first place, the short smart answer is never touch an over-limit second hand air rifle no matter how good a bargain, it saves you many a sleepless night and there are plenty of bargains in your desired choice without getting yourself embroiled in this hassle. Get an accurate Chronograph reading and that will tell you where your rifle is. However, should you unwittingly find yourself the owner of a hot air gun..

 

If you have bought your gun, If you have bought an air rifle that is performing above the legal limit AND it isn't registered as a licenced firearm, there is nothing wrong with talking it over with a gunsmith before you show it to him, tell him you think it's over the 12 ft/lb limit and you need it taking down in power. If he's a reasonable bloke, he'll sort it out for you and de-tune it, though he may ask you if you knew if it was ever registered on an FAC by the previous owner before you take it in. At least give them the chance to accept it as an air rifle that needs taking down in power. before there is any question of a Licenced firearm being sold to an unlicenced buyer.

 

That's where the real issue with confiscations lies. Once registered on a firearms certificate, any air rifle is classed as a firearm and cannot be de-classified or unregistered. It can only be sold on to another licenced customer and re-registered under his ownership. Even one that has been de-tuned to sub-12 ft/lbs makes no difference. In such cases the gun, by law, has to confiscated and surrendered to the Police.

 

 

Best regards.

Simon

Good post Simon, surely nobody in their right mind would try selling a de-tuned or otherwise, fac registered rifle to a person without a certificate, because when his renewal was up and the police wanted to check the serial numbers against his certificate, he might have a little problem explaining where it has gone

[pianoman 3,587]

Hi Charlie.

 

It has actually happened before to someone I know, who bought an HW80 from a guy on another forum. The two of them met in a service area car park and exchanged the rifle for £250 quid cash and off they went on a handshake.

 

Only trouble was, the deal was seen by a member of the public who saw the rifle being taken out of the gunbag and shown to my friend, who examined it then handed a wad of notes over and put the rifle back in the bag and popped into the car boot. Their car number plates were taken down and the police were called.

 

The next thing was the police firearms team arriving at the house and having my friend face the wall of his living room, hands behind his head in front of his terrified family while they recovered the HW80. It had been detuned after being on the seller's FAC and my friend had no genuine idea that this had happened in the rifle's history.

 

He was charged with illegal possession of an unlawfully modified licenced firearm. Even de-tuning it is an act of modification and without the police made aware, it is still classed as an unlawful mod!

 

Once an air rifle is registered on an FAC it stays on-register as a firearm forever. Even if de-tuned to under legal limit.

 

In the light of circumstances my friend was, luckily, let off with a formal police caution. But not before he's spent a few very stressful hours in a police station cell and interview under caution. And he lost the rifle and a good couple of hundred quid. The other guy was charged with relevant offences but no refund for the rifle has so far come forward.

 

Moral of story.

Don't do deals for untested and unqualified air rifles in person, in public car parks with people you've never met before.

[VWman 232]

This is indeed a word of warning, I can see the first mistake having an un bagged gun in a public place. I no about that one.

The fact that an FAC owner was prepared to try to sell an FAC in that way is incredible.

Buying second hand from someone you don't know is a real risk, I think I would only buy second hand from a gun shop.

[VWman 232]

Hello guys

I am just back from the gun shop and spent some time with the gun smith who was a top man and talked me through the process.

I think I would be daft not to support there local shop as they would be on hand to keep a gun in good order and trim the power if I thought it was creeping. I will get a chrono of some sort to keep an eye on it.

The HW80 range that I was using in the shop was 11.4 so would give a bit of leeway for creaping but he said that he would check it again to keep an eye on it if I wanted. this has given me some confidence to buy from them.

If I get my other two mates to buy at the same time and they get a 3 gun sale and scopes then the time he spent with me should pay off for them. Good shop so far.

[clabedoo 59]

You have to remember it is the user/owner/keeper's responsibility to ensure that the weapon does not fire over the legal 12ft/lb with ANY commercially available ammunition. If as some do you cast your own ammo than the weapon may also be tested with that too.

If you take your gun in for testing and its over then it will be adjusted and not taken off you.

You will see countless videos of shooters chronoing(testing) their gun and having to re-adjust it down. No-one locates them and confiscates their gun or indeed prosecutes them. Even though the minute they pull the trigger it is a technical breach of the law.

In short it is not in the public interest for the authorities to pursue this when you are acting in all good faith to remain legal.

From experience very few weapons other than FAC are tested regularly unless the shooter has been the subject of a complaint of some sort.

I recently confiscated an air rifle and crossbow from a chap for a non weapon related matter and both were tested and found to be illegal ie over the 12ft/lb and over the draw strength tension - needless to say he will not be getting them back - he will be appearing in court and should he ever apply; he will not be granted a FAC or SG license.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

[Dr B 186]

 

 

From experience very few weapons other than FAC are tested regularly unless the shooter has been the subject of a complaint of some sort.

 

This for me, can also be a grey area. For example, a neighbour who knows nothing can complain about someone shooting in their own garden (legally). If the police come round, my understanding is they CANNOT take your gun without good reason, and that includes; (i) suspecting it has been used in a criminal way; or (ii) suspecting it is over-powered. The police have to have a GOOD reason to confiscate as I understand it (though I could be wrong). I dont think they can just show up, and based on an ill-imformed complaint, take your weapon.

 

 

I recently confiscated an air rifle and crossbow from a chap for a non weapon related matter and both were tested and found to be illegal ie over the 12ft/lb and over the draw strength tension - needless to say he will not be getting them back - he will be appearing in court and should he ever apply; he will not be granted a FAC or SG license.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

 

I doubt you can say much about this specific case, but some more general guidance is always welcome. This might suggest than my first paragraph above is incorrect? Or did you have very good reason?

[clabedoo 59]

It can be a grey area as you say but each Chief Officer of each policing area has their own policies. Sorry yes I cant give the specifics.

Lets us assume that a complaint of violence has been made against you - however spurious - and the police turn up. For arguments sake lets say they needed to locate certain pieces of evidence that would prove or disprove your involvement in the offence in question. While looking for that evidence they also have the power to seize any items that they suspect may constitute an offence. Just one example of the suspicion stated could be wear marks on the weapon that indicate it has been "..tampered.." with, there is no list - the law does not work that way.

The example you give re the neighbhour making a complaint is a little disingenuous and each case would be taken on its merits. But yes they can take your weapons while an offence is under investigation.

It is a subjective matter for the courts as to whether the seizure was lawful - not as a lot of people think "....they cant just take your guns for no reason...."

Under the umbrella of "..risk management.." some Chief officers' policies may include the seizure of any weapon where there have been reports of violence, drunkenness, drug abuse etc.

If indeed someone is convicted of an offence, (this includes a ticket for public order offences amongst others, as to be eligible for a ticket you have to admit the offence in question) you can also be subject of a CRASBO which will prohibit you from owning/using/keeping even non-FAC weapons.

A lot of people forget that even if you are a FAC holder it is purely and only at the discretion of the Chief Officer for your area. It is not an entitlement as many people seem to think. The BASC (I am a member) and others have an issue here in my opinion. They seem to promulgate the attitude that it is your license and you have the right to it. In actual law this factually incorrect. If the Chief says no in granting or revokes - in law - he need not even provide a reason. Although I suggest this could be challenged on subjective basis. The fact remains that with the current climate granting/renewing FAC is something forces take seriously and revoking them will also I suspect become more commonplace. I don't necessarily agree with all of this just saying it the way it is.

An RFD who obviously needs his license was recently given a ticket for public order - lost his license and his livelihood.

The question of selling a FAC incorrectly is again one that is factually unlawful. The responsibility always lies with the user/owner/keeper.

I suppose in short the answer is to store your weapons in a good state of repair in a secure manner even if they are not FAC. And of course - don't upset the neighbours.

I would not be on this forum if I did not have weapons myself so please don't shoot the messenger

[John Stott 202]

It can be a grey area as you say but each Chief Officer of each policing area has their own policies. Sorry yes I cant give the specifics.

Lets us assume that a complaint of violence has been made against you - however spurious - and the police turn up. For arguments sake lets say they needed to locate certain pieces of evidence that would prove or disprove your involvement in the offence in question. While looking for that evidence they also have the power to seize any items that they suspect may constitute an offence. Just one example of the suspicion stated could be wear marks on the weapon that indicate it has been "..tampered.." with, there is no list - the law does not work that way.

The example you give re the neighbhour making a complaint is a little disingenuous and each case would be taken on its merits. But yes they can take your weapons while an offence is under investigation.

It is a subjective matter for the courts as to whether the seizure was lawful - not as a lot of people think "....they cant just take your guns for no reason...."

Under the umbrella of "..risk management.." some Chief officers' policies may include the seizure of any weapon where there have been reports of violence, drunkenness, drug abuse etc.

If indeed someone is convicted of an offence, (this includes a ticket for public order offences amongst others, as to be eligible for a ticket you have to admit the offence in question) you can also be subject of a CRASBO which will prohibit you from owning/using/keeping even non-FAC weapons.

A lot of people forget that even if you are a FAC holder it is purely and only at the discretion of the Chief Officer for your area. It is not an entitlement as many people seem to think. The BASC (I am a member) and others have an issue here in my opinion. They seem to promulgate the attitude that it is your license and you have the right to it. In actual law this factually incorrect. If the Chief says no in granting or revokes - in law - he need not even provide a reason. Although I suggest this could be challenged on subjective basis. The fact remains that with the current climate granting/renewing FAC is something forces take seriously and revoking them will also I suspect become more commonplace. I don't necessarily agree with all of this just saying it the way it is.

An RFD who obviously needs his license was recently given a ticket for public order - lost his license and his livelihood.

The question of selling a FAC incorrectly is again one that is factually unlawful. The responsibility always lies with the user/owner/keeper.

I suppose in short the answer is to store your weapons in a good state of repair in a secure manner even if they are not FAC. And of course - don't upset the neighbours.

I would not be on this forum if I did not have weapons myself so please don't shoot the messenger

Thanks for that it is clear. Part of essential kit is a chrono. I frankly cannot understand any sensible person not having one. I think the fit over the muzzle types sell for around £40 and are as accurate as any. I "fettle" my own air weapons. I check the fps at least every few months on all three. Also, just out of interest and after many years shooting, I do not see the point of FAC rated air rifles. Sub 12 PCP's will kill and perform well out to 50 yards in the right conditions. Most rifles are good performers at around 11lbs, and yes some pellets will take it over, thats your responsibility to check and adjust if needed. Either yourself if competent or via a gunsmith.

If you need more than 12lb apply for .22lr on an FAC. Now I know others will have differing views on this but Simons story is a good illustration of what can happen. Not helped by some idiotic Utube channels either, yes idiots exist, always have and sadly always will.

I think this is where newcomers need a club, or a good peer group to help. The club scene is healthy, and if you are serious about your hobby, it is worth joining one.

Shooting is a grand pastime, do yourself a favour by educating yourself, joining BASC and / or a club. Mostly though, read and talk to folk, this forum is about the best for advice and information. People are polite and friendly and the idiots soon found out.

[Dr B 186]

Hey Clabedoo

 

Thanks for all the input - very much appreciated. Leaving FAC aside, I still think its a grey area if an officer wants to just seize your weapon, without good reason. Its the 'what counts as good reason' where BASC and the lawyers, quite rightly in some cases, get involved. You mention the police can take your weapon, while investigating an offence, but then they have to establish an offence has taken place first (I assume) and not just act on a ranty neighbour ranting at you shooting (legally) in your garden. Let's not forget, it is legal to shoot in the garden, providing you obey the law. I would hope, when it appears to be a stupid neighbour, the police leave empty handed.

 

What really gets my goat is that the police can be acting on a complaint from someone who is a complete 'anti' and poorly informed on the law. If the police then decide to take and test your gun, and its all fine afterwards, that's still a pretty crappy experience to have to go through. Like you say, if the police apply reason and logic, all should be well and I really hope that is the case most of the time. I have, to be honest, heard mostly good stories when they have called on people and seen lots in the BASC literature on links with the police, which is great.

 

There is no consequence for the complainer, even when some of them behave in a borderline harassing manner.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Dr B

[clabedoo 59]

Hey Clabedoo

 

Thanks for all the input - very much appreciated. Leaving FAC aside, I still think its a grey area if an officer wants to just seize your weapon, without good reason. Its the 'what counts as good reason' where BASC and the lawyers, quite rightly in some cases, get involved. You mention the police can take your weapon, while investigating an offence, but then they have to establish an offence has taken place first (I assume) and not just act on a ranty neighbour ranting at you shooting (legally) in your garden. Let's not forget, it is legal to shoot in the garden, providing you obey the law. I would hope, when it appears to be a stupid neighbour, the police leave empty handed.

 

What really gets my goat is that the police can be acting on a complaint from someone who is a complete 'anti' and poorly informed on the law. If the police then decide to take and test your gun, and its all fine afterwards, that's still a pretty crappy experience to have to go through. Like you say, if the police apply reason and logic, all should be well and I really hope that is the case most of the time. I have, to be honest, heard mostly good stories when they have called on people and seen lots in the BASC literature on links with the police, which is great.

 

There is no consequence for the complainer, even when some of them behave in a borderline harassing manner.

Yep grey as it gets - cops are only human and as per my previous - if they attend as a result of a complaint and are greeted by someone who is responsible in their manner and actions, as above correct storage etc etc then I would hope that the "correct" outcome would be forthcoming. Phsycology plays a big part to whit first impressions go a long way.

I generally liken cops to referees, get under their skin and who knows what could happen not excusing it just saying we can take that part out of the equation.

For every "genuine" shooter who is zeroing, they (we) probably get 3 or 4 reports (at least) of numpties who are doing things the wrong way - back garden, tins of lager, suspiciously large roll-ups and tin cans being potted willy nilly - you get the picture.

As I said I am a BASC member and yet I do worry about the mindset they expound sometimes. Not helpful in my opinion.

Youtube is also full of it. Otherwise very intelligent articulate people can come across as quite belligerent in their videos sometimes.

Don't sink to their level I say.

Just a thought.

[John Stott 202]

Each story is different. Thats the tapestry of life. Devils advocate time. I have met some constables in my years who leave a lot to be desired. Both in attitude and knowledge. Their very approach to some situations raises the stakes. Then over many years I have witnessed the slow militarisation of county forces.

The Met, of which I had a long association, are amongst the worst. Over reaction.

I am very lucky where I live, many officers are shooters / fowlers themselves. My LEO is an ex firearms officer. Frankly they understand and use common sense.

However, you cannot rule out idiocy in certain sections of society.

Do we regulate more? Watch Scotland over the next few years. Or do we just turn round and ban everything?

I said elsewhere, ACPO recently put the hackles up on thousands of law abiding shooters. If it hadn't been for BASC and others you would now have a dedicated number for the public to complain about shooters. It seems the Police Federation also play this game too, media of course love it.

A few years ago, 450,000 of us brought London to a standstill. We had one thing in common. We wanted to defend our rights. The message was not lost on politicians. Yes, BASC can roll out some heavyweights when needed. I for one am grateful for that.