Dandie Dinmont Terrier.

[shaaark 10,864]

 

 

 

 

The kennel club keep the standard set by the breed clubs. The individual breed clubs come up with the standard for each breed. Dog breeders breed dogs not the Kc

I'm with socks and the others on this, can you honestly tell me that a kc/show bred dandie or sealyham could do the job of same breeds bred for work by people not after money/fame?

Same with staffs, bulldogs, gundogs, deerhounds, most working breeds in fact.

Yes it's breeders breeding, but to kc standards, which are ruining most breeds of dog.

All gundogs have to be KC registered to take part in a field trial. Spaniels, retrievers, hpr's, pointers and setters all do the job they were bred for yet are KC registered . A working bred springer spaniel is totally different, looks and mental attitude, to a show bred springer but they are both KC registered with the same standard written down . But the standard doesn't mean a thing to the working bred spaniel breeder/worker. The breed clubs write the standard not the KC, they just register the dogs.

Yes, I get what you're saying, but most people that breed kc/show types are breeding for show only, which is ruining breeds, and it's still all governed by the KC

The KC only register dogs. If the standard , written by the BREED club not the KC, is not met by a dog it is still KC registered . For example the pointer standard says dogs "desirable" height should be 25-27 inches for a dog. If a dog is 23 inches or 28 inches it is still KC registered but it is not within the guidelines written by the BREED club not the KC. The breed clubs write the standard not the KC. Dog breeders breed dogs the KC just register them.

 

Right, got you . So basically what you are saying is that it's the breeders that are breeding for show that are ruining most breeds that were originally bred for work?

[marshman 7,758]

Looks to me like most of the damage was done to the breed between the 1850s and 1915 .

[jessdale 416]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The kennel club keep the standard set by the breed clubs. The individual breed clubs come up with the standard for each breed. Dog breeders breed dogs not the Kc

 

I'm with socks and the others on this, can you honestly tell me that a kc/show bred dandie or sealyham could do the job of same breeds bred for work by people not after money/fame?

Same with staffs, bulldogs, gundogs, deerhounds, most working breeds in fact.

Yes it's breeders breeding, but to kc standards, which are ruining most breeds of dog.

All gundogs have to be KC registered to take part in a field trial. Spaniels, retrievers, hpr's, pointers and setters all do the job they were bred for yet are KC registered . A working bred springer spaniel is totally different, looks and mental attitude, to a show bred springer but they are both KC registered with the same standard written down . But the standard doesn't mean a thing to the working bred spaniel breeder/worker. The breed clubs write the standard not the KC, they just register the dogs.

Yes, I get what you're saying, but most people that breed kc/show types are breeding for show only, which is ruining breeds, and it's still all governed by the KC

The KC only register dogs. If the standard , written by the BREED club not the KC, is not met by a dog it is still KC registered . For example the pointer standard says dogs "desirable" height should be 25-27 inches for a dog. If a dog is 23 inches or 28 inches it is still KC registered but it is not within the guidelines written by the BREED club not the KC. The breed clubs write the standard not the KC. Dog breeders breed dogs the KC just register them.

Right, got you . So basically what you are saying is that it's the breeders that are breeding for show that are ruining most breeds that were originally bred for work?

That's correct matey. Edited January 31, 2015 by jessdale

[shaaark 10,864]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The kennel club keep the standard set by the breed clubs. The individual breed clubs come up with the standard for each breed. Dog breeders breed dogs not the Kc

I'm with socks and the others on this, can you honestly tell me that a kc/show bred dandie or sealyham could do the job of same breeds bred for work by people not after money/fame?

Same with staffs, bulldogs, gundogs, deerhounds, most working breeds in fact.

Yes it's breeders breeding, but to kc standards, which are ruining most breeds of dog.

All gundogs have to be KC registered to take part in a field trial. Spaniels, retrievers, hpr's, pointers and setters all do the job they were bred for yet are KC registered . A working bred springer spaniel is totally different, looks and mental attitude, to a show bred springer but they are both KC registered with the same standard written down . But the standard doesn't mean a thing to the working bred spaniel breeder/worker. The breed clubs write the standard not the KC, they just register the dogs.

Yes, I get what you're saying, but most people that breed kc/show types are breeding for show only, which is ruining breeds, and it's still all governed by the KC

The KC only register dogs. If the standard , written by the BREED club not the KC, is not met by a dog it is still KC registered . For example the pointer standard says dogs "desirable" height should be 25-27 inches for a dog. If a dog is 23 inches or 28 inches it is still KC registered but it is not within the guidelines written by the BREED club not the KC. The breed clubs write the standard not the KC. Dog breeders breed dogs the KC just register them.

Right, got you . So basically what you are saying is that it's the breeders that are breeding for show that are ruining most breeds that were originally bred for work?

That's correct matey. If you want show bred dogs go to those that breed for showing or workers if you want workers. Both may be Kc registered but, in a lot of breeds, they will be worlds apart in looks and mental attitude. Some breeds are still very much show/work dual purpose but you wouldn't get far trying to show a working bred bearded collie at a show. Lol

 

Never had much to do with showing dogs, went to a few many years ago, and last time was at the welsh game fair with my son, be 4 yrs ago this june. Got no time for it, bores the pants off me.

[Tiercel 6,986]

Jessdale you are correct in that the breed clubs set the standard,and that the standard is exactly the same for working and show dogs. However, it is a judge of any breed, that is appointed by the KC for KC shows I believe, that dictates how the dog looks. Their likes and dislikes are bred for, cos if the judge does not like the way your dog looks there are no rosettes for you.

 

TC

Edited January 31, 2015 by tiercel

[shaaark 10,864]

Jessdale you are correct in that the breed clubs set the standard,and that the standard is exactly the same for working and show dogs. However, it is a judge of any breed that is appointed by the KC for KC shows, I believe, that dictates how the dog looks. Their likes and dislikes are bred for, cos if the judge does not like the way your dog looks there are no rosettes for you.

 

TC

If it's the kc that appoints these judges, then these judges certainly aint judging to the laid down standard and should be kicked right up the arse and thrown out for helping to ruin what were once perfectly usable breeds, and new judges appointed that will judge correctly.

So it is, in effect, the kc which is responsible for the dross you see at kc shows, not just breeders?

[Mixedgrill 704]

The reason I don't add anything to this tread is because I know nothing about this breed lads so I'll leave you's to it

[Tiercel 6,986]

If it's the kc that appoints these judges, then these judges certainly aint judging to the laid down standard and should be kicked right up the arse and thrown out for helping to ruin what were once perfectly usable breeds, and new judges appointed that will judge correctly.

So it is, in effect, the kc which is responsible for the dross you see at kc shows, not just breeders?

 

No, although the judge is appointed by the KC they have no control over how they judge dogs. All show dogs must conform to the breed standard but the breed standard leaves a lot of scope for interpretation within the standard. It is the judges that decide what dogs look like.

 

TC

[jessdale 416]

Jessdale you are correct in that the breed clubs set the standard,and that the standard is exactly the same for working and show dogs. However, it is a judge of any breed, that is appointed by the KC for KC shows I believe, that dictates how the dog looks. Their likes and dislikes are bred for, cos if the judge does not like the way your dog looks there are no rosettes for you.

 

TC

The judge goes over the dog with the breed standard in mind. If the standard says 20" tall a dog at 25" tall ain't going to win. The breed clubs write the standard.

[Tiercel 6,986]

Here is the breed standard for a lab.

 

Very vague to say the least. they tend to use words that are really non descriptive so can be interpreted in many ways.

 

 

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/standard.aspx?id=2048

 

TC

[shaaark 10,864]

 

If it's the kc that appoints these judges, then these judges certainly aint judging to the laid down standard and should be kicked right up the arse and thrown out for helping to ruin what were once perfectly usable breeds, and new judges appointed that will judge correctly.

So it is, in effect, the kc which is responsible for the dross you see at kc shows, not just breeders?

 

No, although the judge is appointed by the KC they have no control over how they judge dogs. All show dogs must conform to the breed standard but the breed standard leaves a lot of scope for interpretation within the standard. It is the judges that decide what dogs look like.

 

TC

 

[Tiercel 6,986]

 

Jessdale you are correct in that the breed clubs set the standard,and that the standard is exactly the same for working and show dogs. However, it is a judge of any breed, that is appointed by the KC for KC shows I believe, that dictates how the dog looks. Their likes and dislikes are bred for, cos if the judge does not like the way your dog looks there are no rosettes for you.

 

TC

The judge goes over the dog with the breed standard in mind. If the standard says 20" tall a dog at 25" tall ain't going to win. The breed clubs write the standard.

 

It is the judges who awards the prizes, it is their interpretations of what conforms to the breed standard that wins the prizes. To win at shows you have to please the judge simple as. Been there done that. It is the judge who decides, as long as the dog conforms with the breed standard.

 

TC

[jessdale 416]

 

 

Jessdale you are correct in that the breed clubs set the standard,and that the standard is exactly the same for working and show dogs. However, it is a judge of any breed, that is appointed by the KC for KC shows I believe, that dictates how the dog looks. Their likes and dislikes are bred for, cos if the judge does not like the way your dog looks there are no rosettes for you.

 

TC

 

The judge goes over the dog with the breed standard in mind. If the standard says 20" tall a dog at 25" tall ain't going to win. The breed clubs write the standard.

. It is the judge who decides, as long as the dog conforms with the breed standard.

 

TC

And who writes the breed standard????, the breed club.

[Tiercel 6,986]

FFS are you really that thick? Tell me then, how broad is a broad head? How long is medium? I could go on and on and you still would not get it. The breed standards are made by the breed clubs, I have already agreed with you on this. But they are deliberately vague to allow for each judge to pick what he believes the dog should look like within the vague outlines of the breed standard.

 

If it was not like that there would no need to have judges just put a dog up on a bench get out the tape and the nearest to the standard wins.

 

TC

[morton 5,368]

The kennel club registers pedigree dogs, they do not ruin breeds. It's like saying the dvla ruined the Subaru Impreza when the shape of the car was changed.

The KC is directly responsible for a breeds working ruination,they change the type,coat and character to suit what they deem fashionable in the show ring,over the years their meddling,to suit a judges preference,slowly erodes away the type and character of the original until their Frankenstein creation,with its resultant health and physical abnormalities,morphs into a jukel ruined through ignorance and greed.The KC is directly responsible for the state many KC breeds are now in.