Inbreeding/Line Breeding

[T.F.Student 0]

I have a spaniel which is the result of an accidental brother/sister mating. I wish to breed from this bitch, but have struggled in finding what i want in a sire. I have seen a dog i like, but the dogs sire is the same sire (different dam) as my bitch.

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge they can share with this type of mating.

[DUCKWING 302]

I have a spaniel which is the result of an accidental brother/sister mating. I wish to breed from this bitch, but have struggled in finding what i want in a sire. I have seen a dog i like, but the dogs sire is the same sire (different dam) as my bitch.

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge they can share with this type of mating.

 

GO FOR IT ,

 

CULL HARD .... TEST THE REST...... . HARD .. AND CULL AGAIN ......... AND YOU MAY HAVE SOMETHING WORTH KEEPING ,

 

ALL ..... LINES / FAMILIES HAVE BEEN INBRED TO SOME EXTENT , THEIR SUCESS IS USUALLY DOWN TO TWO THINGS .......

 

1 . THE ORIGINALS BEING PERFECT SPECIMENS ..........

 

2 , THE ABILITY OF THE BREEDER TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT INDIVIDUALS TO BREED FROM

 

 

ALL THE BEST

 

DUCKWING

[gnasher16 30,217]

If the dog you are inbreeding on is a good physical specimen and he is what you consider to be a " good dog " in other ways then go for it.....what you must remember is inbreeding will bring out the good aspects in a higher dosage...but it will also bring out the bad in an equally high dosage so you must be sure you are inbreeding on what is basically " a good dog "....if the dog you are inbreeding on is not a family bred or tightly bred dog then the actual mating you do will not be as closely linked genetically as you may think and not necessarily produce accurate likeness in its offspring....inbreeding from scatterbred or unrelated dogs is not as tight a breeding as you may think and you could expect all sorts in the litter....from a health/physical point of view...as long as you are being very selective in quality on the dogs you inbreed off you will have no problems....best of luck.

[Guest pip]

I was always told you can go twice in and then once out twice in once out etc although i know of fellas who go further in.I bred my black fell bitch back to her da and if the pup works out ill go to him again if he s still around ,if not ill go to her uncle.Then out.Although im no expert just experimenting based on what iv e heard works.Although as has already been said the product has to be there in the first place which i assume it is seeing that you have your eye on the dog.

[T.F.Student 0]

Many thanks for the replies...to round it up all i can say is that all the dogs i've mentioned exhibit everything i could want in a spaniel.

This is my bitch.

[gnasher16 30,217]

I was always told you can go twice in and then once out twice in once out etc although i know of fellas who go further in.I bred my black fell bitch back to her da and if the pup works out ill go to him again if he s still around ,if not ill go to her uncle.Then out.Although im no expert just experimenting based on what iv e heard works.Although as has already been said the product has to be there in the first place which i assume it is seeing that you have your eye on the dog.

 

 

Thats one of the strangest theories ive ever heard !...so for every 2 generations of inbreeding you have to outcross right ?......its simply not as black and white as that.....every case is different there cant be set rules to family breeding.......for instance,maintaining that theory over 10 generations will result in totally scatterbred dogs with no likeness or purity whatsoever...the reason to inbreed is to tighten up genetically and make the genes past down more predictable....if you inbreed for 2 generations then outcross,then inbreed on those outcrossed dogs you are just running round in circles....you should only inbreed for very good reason otherwise you risk losing much more than you gain,...ideally ,if you can keep enough dogs to do so,try outcrossing 2 unrelated inbred dogs...in other words....inbred dogs but from different strains....you then can expect dogs that have the genetic purity to produce well but also the hybrid vigour to perform well.....no offence by the way

[Guest pip]

As i said im no expert i have an interest in linebreeding but it was never a culture as such where im from just worker to worker what i have in mind will have to be looked at a bit closer but i do believe that family breeding is the way to go.Having said all that i only know of one line bred family and its miles away although an option for an outcross.So how many dogs do you need G16 to produce a family line and how many times can you go in and when and why do you need an outcross.

[gnasher16 30,217]

Pip for dogs to be set as a family they need to be showing family traits...in other words traits typical of their heritage.....this can take 3 generations or it can take 10...a lot of it depends on the original dogs you are inbreeding off...if they are very loose bred dogs to start it is going to take a lot longer to tighten them up to where they are throwing select family traits...and of course if you are doing it right you will be culling more than you are keeping slowing the process down still further.

If you bred a dog back to one of its parents and then bred 2 of the resulting littermates to each other you will have a litter that is statistically 75 % of the dog you inbred on....however in reality that % is much reduced in real terms if the dog you inbred on had no common ancestry himself due to the way genes fall...meaning if you outcross at this stage you are just juggling the genes up even further for no real reason

 

The more unrelated the dogs you breed = the more possible combinations of genes can be produced = the less you can predict the outcome.

 

The more related the dogs you breed = the less possible combinations of genes can be produced = the more you can predict the outcome.....

 

The less gene combinations there are,the more they will be repeating...which is basically what inbreeding is,repeating genes!

 

Hope this helps,im no expert either mate its just a field that interests me......genetics in relation to breeding is a massive field and probably best kept simple for people like us with limited knowledge

Edited October 26, 2007 by gnasher16

[BITCH 135]

Edited October 26, 2007 by BITCH

[samba 534]

good look with what ever way you go

[Guest SJM]

Ive done father x daughter with lurchers a few times, the first time I did it was with a bitch out of NB's Fury, we put him back over her and she had 15 pups

[higgins 75]

i agree with duckwing and gnasher to an extent in so far as you can 'see' they are perfect physical

specimens,but you also have to be aware of the 'unseen' genetical makeup of each parent,and as pip's theory goes it is designed to make sure you don't inbreed too close,so i would agree with pip

too,in the sense that if you are going to line breed or inbreed then it would be a good rule of thumb to follow,more so in close in breeding ie father to daughter,brother to sister etc,the main thing to consider

is what cannot be seen,'recessive genes' for any deformities etc,if the history has been clear on both parents sides it would be a safe bet to breed,inbreeding usually accentuates the good,but if there are any 'recessive' bad genes present in both parents then they will usually show in the litter,this is just a brief explanation as anyone who reads about genetics will tell you,

Higgins.

[gnasher16 30,217]

Higgins you are kind of right in what you say,however " recessive " doesnt necessarily mean bad.....a dominant gene can be passed on by an individual regardless of the other mix of genes...a recessive gene will need a similar or identical make up of genes to produce itself....in other words it needs to come from both sides.....you are right in that inbreeding will not necessarily SHOW the bad...but likewise it will not necessarily SHOW the good even though the capability of those qualities is still there through the genetic make up....in other words,not all good or bad traits will show themself even though they have the capability to....this is why it is so important to be ultra ultra selective in the individual dogs used.....the mistake people who inbreed dogs often make is they blame a fault on inbreeding,and then outcross to correct it when in reality all they are doing is losing control of the fault by outcrossing.

 

If you are extremely selective in the animals you inbreed off....it takes a long long time to start getting any sort of deformities.....problems such as what is called inbred suppression creates problems with anything from skin problems to heart defects..... mental shyness is another defect linked with inbreeding amongst others....but these problems take a lot of generations of inbreeding to come to light unless of course poor individuals are used....it is basically a staleness of the genetic make up...and if you can imagine the huge amount of genetic factors involved you will realise it takes a long time to get like this.

Gnasher

[T.F.Student 0]

Cheers for the above posts it makes things a lot clearer. I was just worried that it may be the wrong thing to do full stop. I gather from it that nothing is cut and dried and whatever happens...in the end just happens. But by being selective i am hopefully/more likely to produce something like the type of dog i want. More so than if i picked a dog just because it was a spaniel. I did have my eye on another unrelated dog, who it turned out, lacked stamina and although a physically strong dog himself, he didn't pass this trait onto his pups.

 

15 Pups SJM there are somethings i don't need to know My bitch comes from a litter of 10 So i might be needing that luck your offering Samba

 

This has posed another question: Is there a connection between the number of times a bitch stands for a dog and the size of the litter?

[gnasher16 30,217]

This has posed another question: Is there a connection between the number of times a bitch stands for a dog and the size of the litter?

 

 

 

Nobody knows for sure....a bitch might have 6 pups regardless if she stands once or 10 times...BUT...unlike humans a dog can be fertilised by more than one male and produce offspring from both dogs,this suggests that pups can be conceived on different matings....whether that has any relation to size of litter im not aware that has been proven.

In regards to size of litters.....inbreeding WILL cut down the amount of pups in a litter due to less variety of genes.....inbreeding should bring out the best and the worst of what a line has to offer.....Best of Luck.