Loaded Magazines, Travelling/cabinet Ect..

[Matthew Phillips 36]

Hi guys,

 

Recently acquired my FAC and what wasn't made clear was how to handle the magazines of the rifles.

1. Should they be locked in the ammo safe?
2. Can they be loaded when locked in the safe?
3. Can they be loaded when travelling but not in the rifle?
4. Can an empty magazine be in the rifle when travelling or in a cabinet?

Thanks guys

 

Rather be safe than sorry!

[walshie 2,804]

Hi guys,

 

Recently acquired my FAC and what wasn't made clear was how to handle the magazines of the rifles.

1. Should they be locked in the ammo safe? - NOT NECESSARILY
2. Can they be loaded when locked in the safe? - NO
3. Can they be loaded when travelling but not in the rifle? - NO
4. Can an empty magazine be in the rifle when travelling or in a cabinet? -YES

Thanks guys

 

Rather be safe than sorry!

[doie1 22]

sorry to jump on this post but to do with the same subject, if your walking through a field with a loaded rifle and you want to go into the next field which happens to be across a road, do you have to take the mag out and eject the round thats in the chamber before doing so?

[delswal 3,819]

sorry to jump on this post but to do with the same subject, if your walking through a field with a loaded rifle and you want to go into the next field which happens to be across a road, do you have to take the mag out and eject the round thats in the chamber before doing so?

Yes, and if I am not mistaken, which I might be the rifle would also needed to be in a sleeve or case if crossing a public highway.

[Bigad 136]

Yes needs to be in sleeve or case if in public area

[CharlieT 32]

Yes needs to be in sleeve or case if in public area

 

Incorrect. The law does not stipulate it must be sleeved, however common sense would suggest it would be better

 

Hi guys,

 

Recently acquired my FAC and what wasn't made clear was how to handle the magazines of the rifles.

1. Should they be locked in the ammo safe? No
2. Can they be loaded when locked in the safe? Yes
3. Can they be loaded when travelling but not in the rifle? Yes
4. Can an empty magazine be in the rifle when travelling or in a cabinet? Yes

Thanks guys

 

Rather be safe than sorry!

[let'sshoot 11]

Different opinions from different people.

 

Anyone know the actual true answers instead of personal stipulations and interpretations presumably from HO guidelines.

 

Thanks

[CharlieT 32]

Different opinions from different people.

 

Anyone know the actual true answers instead of personal stipulations and interpretations presumably from HO guidelines.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

The answers are to be found in the Firearms Act, hence my answers are correct.

[walshie 2,804]

To the original poster:

 

The best thing you can do for your own peace of mind, is either read the relevant legislation yourself or ask your FEO the same questions.

 

Obviously people interpret things different ways, so for a member to edit someone else's reply (apart from being plain rude) and then state categorically their own responses are correct, doesn't necessarily make that so.

 

If something went wrong, then "so-and-so on the forum said this" wouldn't help you.

 

Hope this helps.

[Alsone 789]

I've seen differing opinions on the magazine issue as well.

 

Would be good if someone could pose this question to the BASC for a definitive answer.

 

My own views have always been that if a magzine is loaded then yes in the safe it has to be in the separate ammo compartment - it's still ammo whether it's in a contained in a magazine or a manufacturers carboard & plastic carton. I don't think there's anyone who would believe to the contrary.

 

As for the other questions, commons sense says that a loaded magazine if not in the gun is not a loaded gun. It cannot be fired. That said I have no legal basis for believing that to be the case and the law doesn't always follow a common sense approach, so this is something that really needs to be clarified with the BASC for everyone's benefit, not least of which because it is a real pain to have to strip rounds from multiple magazines everytime you go out or cross a path / road.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Alsone

[CharlieT 32]

Section 19 of the Firearms Act is quite specific on the matter of carrying firearms in a public place and is the definitive legislation on the matter.

 

19Carrying firearm in a public place.

A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place

[F45(a)a loaded shot gun,

(an air weapon (whether loaded or not),

(c)any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm, or

(d)an imitation firearm.]

The act defines a public place as so:

“public place” includes any [F178highway][F178road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)] and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise;

The act does not differentiate between a charged magazine, loose ammo or ammo in the maker's box.

It also goes on to say:

(a shot gun or an air weapon shall be deemed to be loaded if there is ammunition in the chamber or barrel or in any magazine or other device which is in such a position that the ammunition can be fed into the chamber or barrel by the manual or automatic operation of some part of the gun or weapon.

You will have noticed that the law (the Firearms Act) does not mention rifles in the above, therefore, a rifle is not classed as loaded if one has a charged magazine in one's pocket or for that matter in the rifle itself. Nor does the act make any mention of having a rifle slipped in a public place.

Obviously storing a charged magazine in one's safe is perfectly legal.

I would add that common sense may override the above in many circumstances. How I act in the remote countryside is totally different to how I do in a town !!

[SportingShooter 0]

Section 19 of the Firearms Act is quite specific on the matter of carrying firearms in a public place and is the definitive legislation on the matter.

 

19Carrying firearm in a public place.

A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place

[F45(a)a loaded shot gun,

( an air weapon (whether loaded or not),

©any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm, or

 

(d)an imitation firearm.]

The act defines a public place as so:

“public place” includes any [F178highway][F178road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)] and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise;

The act does not differentiate between a charged magazine, loose ammo or ammo in the maker's box.

It also goes on to say:

( a shot gun or an air weapon shall be deemed to be loaded if there is ammunition in the chamber or barrel or in any magazine or other device which is in such a position that the ammunition can be fed into the chamber or barrel by the manual or automatic operation of some part of the gun or weapon.

You will have noticed that the law (the Firearms Act) does not mention rifles in the above, therefore, a rifle is not classed as loaded if one has a charged magazine in one's pocket or for that matter in the rifle itself. Nor does the act make any mention of having a rifle slipped in a public place.

Obviously storing a charged magazine in one's safe is perfectly legal.

I would add that common sense may override the above in many circumstances. How I act in the remote countryside is totally different to how I do in a town !!

 

Common sense indeed,

 

That subtle difference of "whether loaded or not" makes a big difference, along with the possession of ammunition regardless of whether it's in the rifle or not.

 

I dare say whilst traveling in your vehicle from one piece of land to another with a loaded magazine in your pocket and a rifle also in the vehicle would be a "reasonable exuse", can't say I'd like to explain that to a Magistrate though.

[CharlieT 32]

 

Section 19 of the Firearms Act is quite specific on the matter of carrying firearms in a public place and is the definitive legislation on the matter.

 

19Carrying firearm in a public place.

A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place

[F45(a)a loaded shot gun,

( an air weapon (whether loaded or not),

(c)any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm, or

 

(d)an imitation firearm.]

The act defines a public place as so:

“public place” includes any [F178highway][F178road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)] and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise;

The act does not differentiate between a charged magazine, loose ammo or ammo in the maker's box.

It also goes on to say:

( a shot gun or an air weapon shall be deemed to be loaded if there is ammunition in the chamber or barrel or in any magazine or other device which is in such a position that the ammunition can be fed into the chamber or barrel by the manual or automatic operation of some part of the gun or weapon.

You will have noticed that the law (the Firearms Act) does not mention rifles in the above, therefore, a rifle is not classed as loaded if one has a charged magazine in one's pocket or for that matter in the rifle itself. Nor does the act make any mention of having a rifle slipped in a public place.

Obviously storing a charged magazine in one's safe is perfectly legal.

I would add that common sense may override the above in many circumstances. How I act in the remote countryside is totally different to how I do in a town !!

 

Common sense indeed,

 

That subtle difference of "whether loaded or not" makes a big difference, along with the possession of ammunition regardless of whether it's in the rifle or not.

 

I dare say whilst traveling in your vehicle from one piece of land to another with a loaded magazine in your pocket and a rifle also in the vehicle would be a "reasonable exuse", can't say I'd like to explain that to a Magistrate though.

 

 

Possession of a firearms certificate and using/carrying a firearm in connection with its use provides the "reasonable excuse".

[Alsone 789]

 

Section 19 of the Firearms Act is quite specific on the matter of carrying firearms in a public place and is the definitive legislation on the matter.

 

19Carrying firearm in a public place.

A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place

[F45(a)a loaded shot gun,

( an air weapon (whether loaded or not),

©any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm, or

 

(d)an imitation firearm.]

The act defines a public place as so:

“public place” includes any [F178highway][F178road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)] and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise;

The act does not differentiate between a charged magazine, loose ammo or ammo in the maker's box.

It also goes on to say:

( a shot gun or an air weapon shall be deemed to be loaded if there is ammunition in the chamber or barrel or in any magazine or other device which is in such a position that the ammunition can be fed into the chamber or barrel by the manual or automatic operation of some part of the gun or weapon.

You will have noticed that the law (the Firearms Act) does not mention rifles in the above, therefore, a rifle is not classed as loaded if one has a charged magazine in one's pocket or for that matter in the rifle itself. Nor does the act make any mention of having a rifle slipped in a public place.

Obviously storing a charged magazine in one's safe is perfectly legal.

I would add that common sense may override the above in many circumstances. How I act in the remote countryside is totally different to how I do in a town !!

 

Common sense indeed,

 

That subtle difference of "whether loaded or not" makes a big difference, along with the possession of ammunition regardless of whether it's in the rifle or not.

 

I dare say whilst traveling in your vehicle from one piece of land to another with a loaded magazine in your pocket and a rifle also in the vehicle would be a "reasonable exuse", can't say I'd like to explain that to a Magistrate though.

 

 

Well if you read the Act as written then I don't think you'd need a defence of reasonable excuse - clearly on purely the wording in the Act as reproduced above, having a separate loaded magazine IS prima facie permitted at least for shotguns and air weapons (however read on below).

 

The Act as reproduced above (I haven't checked it so I presume it's an acuurate reproduction) clearly says "if there is ammunition in the chamber or barrel or in any magazine or other device which is in such a position that the ammunition can be fed into the chamber or barrel by the manual or automatic operation of some part of the gun"

 

A round in a magazine in a pocket can clearly NOT be fed into the chamber by an operation of some part of the gun (it requires it to be separately attached first). So I'd interpret that on the basis of no further informaton as prima facie meaning that a loaded magazine IS permitted provided it's not attached to the gun whilst in storage or transit (at least for shotguns / air rifles).

 

Given that nothing is stated as being said for Rifles, the question remains open, as it doesindeed for shotguns and air rifles, despite whats just been said above, until it can be established from a suitably qualified legal advisor that the meaning hasn't been clarified elsewhere by case law. There's a danger to relying purely on the Act wording as it's meaning could have been modified elsewhere.

 

Hence why I think this really needs qualified guidance from eg the BASC.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Alsone

[CharlieT 32]

The CPS take the wording of the Firearms Act into account in their prosecution policy and guidance (on selecting the appropriate charge), noting the fact that loaded shotguns and rifles (be they loaded or not) together with ammunition are different beasts, see the last bullet point. Thus the offense is not whether the rifle is loaded or not, but merely that ammunition in one's possession.

 

There may be an overlap between an offence contrary to section 1 or section 2 and section 19 Firearms Act where a person with a firearm or loaded shotgun for which no certificate is held is in a public place. The following factors should be taken into account when determining the appropriate charge:

• Section 1, section 2 and section 5 are offences of strict liability;
• Section 19 provides a defence of "lawful authority or reasonable excuse" for possession;
• Section 1 and section 2 are triable either way with a maximum penalty of 5 years;
• Section 19 is triable either way but carries a maximum penalty of 7 years;
• Section 1 and section 2 do not require the weapon to be loaded. No certificate is required for possession of shotgun cartridges; and
• Section 19 requires the shotgun to be loaded or for there to be possession of a firearm and suitable ammunition.