Sugar Ray Robinson

[gnasher16 30,269]

 

Which is why i think, fighters of yesteryear would stack up against fighters of today with no problem, these men were conditioned to fight, it's not a running race or weightlifting competition, their massive experience would allow them to handle someone like Ricky Hatton steaming in at 100 miles an hour, a Henry Armstrong or Robinson would simply not have been phased, and i'd bet my life wouldn't have been out strengthed or not physical enough.

 

Interesting discussion though

 

But to judge and compare fitness alone you have to make everything else equal......no Hatton would not of stood a chance with either of those gents.....that doesnt mean he wasnt at a higher physical peak of conditioning though.

[satan80 358]

 

 

 

Aside from nutrition and supplements though, the training regimes for boxers have hardly changed in the last 50-60 years - boxing often gets criticized for not embracing 'modern' methods (weights, explosive training, intervals etc) as the standard roadwork, bag/pads, sparring and floor work (sit ups/push ups/push ups pull ups etc) have been used by champion after champion over the last 2/3 generations.

 

This begs the question, in what way are modern boxers 'stronger fitter and faster' than those of 50 years ago? There's no way to compare boxing to a sport like running which is a purely athletic pursuit, as there's so many other factors which make a better conditioned fighter than just arbitrary levels of fitness that can be measured.

 

I've sparred and fought guys who could out sprint me, more explosive, much stronger physically, and handled them with ease and beat them up, similarly i've sparred guys who i've had every physical and athletic advantage over and been given a pasting.

 

I just don't think you can separate physical qualities and skill/craft in a sport like boxing, the lines are much too blurred. There's welterweights i've sparred who've felt as strong as heavyweights as they were so adept at using angles and leverage on the inside, and let's not even get into punching power, because i don't care what anyone says - punchers are born not made.

This means that despite every 'improvement' in nutrition/supplements/peds/training regime, nothing sports science could throw at any lightweight in the world today for example, could make them punch as hard as Roberto Duran.

 

 

This is why boxing is the ultimate sport for me, because fighters can keep becoming better athletes, faster, stronger etc, but it's the immeasurable qualities that make an outstanding fighter - timing, judgement of distance, heart, desire, ring intelligence, commitment, aggression, calmness and patience - and these are the attributes that i'd want in any of my fighters, above any physical qualities

 

Speak with a reasonably succesful trainer of a certain age who has trained fighters through the generations and ask them if fighters today are physically fitter......all else being equal ( skills/ability etc ) .....The thing we do when comparing like this is we look at the highest level to compare......but if you take the average journeyman pro of today and compare fitness levels to the average journeyman pro of even only 30 years ago it is like chalk and cheese.......apart from the obvious nutrition side of things,think of things like sponsorship......years ago pro fighters were not sponsored,most had 9 to 5 jobs and would see a 5 mile run before work and an hour hitting the bags at night as a days training.....today even average pros have sponsorship meaning they can dedicate themself to the sport so much better both financially and timewise by not having to work.

Also look at equipment.....fighters years ago didnt have for example treadmills.....the amount of training days you would lose through the rain years ago as no trainer would suggest going out doing your roadwork in the pouring rain.....today fighters need never lose days at all........simple scientific knowledge of conditioning is far and beyond what anybody understood years ago and that is going to show itself in the athlete stood in front of you.....i just think its really naive to think the conditioning of fighters hasnt evolved over the years.

 

 

I won't argue that 'Scientific knowledge of conditioning' has improved over the years, no doubt, but in boxing specifically has it made fighters fitter for actually fighting? I'd argue not.

 

Jake LaMotta for example, his training has been documented -

 

10 mins skipping

10 mins body bag

10 mins double end bag

 

10 rounds sparring with rotating partners

 

100 push ups

100 sit ups

 

Roadwork in the morning

 

This is pretty much identical to what say Carl Froch does now - his gym work is focused on boxing, he uses bodyweight exercises rather than weights, and gets his cardio from running/bike riding.

 

I think something that's often overlooked too, is that fitness/conditioning is genetically limited - some people are just blessed with huge lung capacity or heart stroke volume, something that's rarely tested on boxers but makes a huge difference. This is why is frustrates me when some fighters are criticised for 'not training hard enough' if they gas in a fight when i'm sure they've trained like demons. Froch comes on late in a fight and rarely tires whereas Groves fades late, doesn't mean Froch is necessarily training harder - i'd wager that if he was plonked in a lab and tested like the top runners/cyclists are, Froch's VO2 max would be absolutely huge, he's clearly genetically gifted in that department.

 

I've got guys in my gym, who i train exactly the same and are put through same regimes, but when it comes down to sparring, one of them can go on much much longer than the rest at a higher pace.

 

And your point about treadmills If one of my lads told me he couldn't go running cause it was raining outside i'd give him a slap and tell him he needs another sport more suited to his sensitive nature, lawn bowls perhaps

[gnasher16 30,269]

 

 

 

 

Aside from nutrition and supplements though, the training regimes for boxers have hardly changed in the last 50-60 years - boxing often gets criticized for not embracing 'modern' methods (weights, explosive training, intervals etc) as the standard roadwork, bag/pads, sparring and floor work (sit ups/push ups/push ups pull ups etc) have been used by champion after champion over the last 2/3 generations.

 

This begs the question, in what way are modern boxers 'stronger fitter and faster' than those of 50 years ago? There's no way to compare boxing to a sport like running which is a purely athletic pursuit, as there's so many other factors which make a better conditioned fighter than just arbitrary levels of fitness that can be measured.

 

I've sparred and fought guys who could out sprint me, more explosive, much stronger physically, and handled them with ease and beat them up, similarly i've sparred guys who i've had every physical and athletic advantage over and been given a pasting.

 

I just don't think you can separate physical qualities and skill/craft in a sport like boxing, the lines are much too blurred. There's welterweights i've sparred who've felt as strong as heavyweights as they were so adept at using angles and leverage on the inside, and let's not even get into punching power, because i don't care what anyone says - punchers are born not made.

This means that despite every 'improvement' in nutrition/supplements/peds/training regime, nothing sports science could throw at any lightweight in the world today for example, could make them punch as hard as Roberto Duran.

 

 

This is why boxing is the ultimate sport for me, because fighters can keep becoming better athletes, faster, stronger etc, but it's the immeasurable qualities that make an outstanding fighter - timing, judgement of distance, heart, desire, ring intelligence, commitment, aggression, calmness and patience - and these are the attributes that i'd want in any of my fighters, above any physical qualities

 

Speak with a reasonably succesful trainer of a certain age who has trained fighters through the generations and ask them if fighters today are physically fitter......all else being equal ( skills/ability etc ) .....The thing we do when comparing like this is we look at the highest level to compare......but if you take the average journeyman pro of today and compare fitness levels to the average journeyman pro of even only 30 years ago it is like chalk and cheese.......apart from the obvious nutrition side of things,think of things like sponsorship......years ago pro fighters were not sponsored,most had 9 to 5 jobs and would see a 5 mile run before work and an hour hitting the bags at night as a days training.....today even average pros have sponsorship meaning they can dedicate themself to the sport so much better both financially and timewise by not having to work.

Also look at equipment.....fighters years ago didnt have for example treadmills.....the amount of training days you would lose through the rain years ago as no trainer would suggest going out doing your roadwork in the pouring rain.....today fighters need never lose days at all........simple scientific knowledge of conditioning is far and beyond what anybody understood years ago and that is going to show itself in the athlete stood in front of you.....i just think its really naive to think the conditioning of fighters hasnt evolved over the years.

 

 

I won't argue that 'Scientific knowledge of conditioning' has improved over the years, no doubt, but in boxing specifically has it made fighters fitter for actually fighting? I'd argue not.

 

Jake LaMotta for example, his training has been documented -

 

10 mins skipping

10 mins body bag

10 mins double end bag

 

10 rounds sparring with rotating partners

 

100 push ups

100 sit ups

 

Roadwork in the morning

 

This is pretty much identical to what say Carl Froch does now - his gym work is focused on boxing, he uses bodyweight exercises rather than weights, and gets his cardio from running/bike riding.

 

I think something that's often overlooked too, is that fitness/conditioning is genetically limited - some people are just blessed with huge lung capacity or heart stroke volume, something that's rarely tested on boxers but makes a huge difference. This is why is frustrates me when some fighters are criticised for 'not training hard enough' if they gas in a fight when i'm sure they've trained like demons. Froch comes on late in a fight and rarely tires whereas Groves fades late, doesn't mean Froch is necessarily training harder - i'd wager that if he was plonked in a lab and tested like the top runners/cyclists are, Froch's VO2 max would be absolutely huge, he's clearly genetically gifted in that department.

 

I've got guys in my gym, who i train exactly the same and are put through same regimes, but when it comes down to sparring, one of them can go on much much longer than the rest at a higher pace.

 

And your point about treadmills If one of my lads told me he couldn't go running cause it was raining outside i'd give him a slap and tell him he needs another sport more suited to his sensitive nature, lawn bowls perhaps

 

 

Again,you are choosing the elite fighters to make a comparison........take the average fighter the sport has to offer....todays average fighter will be training 3 times per day,yesteryears average fighter was lucky to fit an hour per day in around work.

 

Yes of course being fitter means they are fitter for fighting......im of the opinion nothing gets a fighter fitter for fighting than fighting itself and thats why them old timers could stay in great shape as they were fighting so often,but as ive already explained todays elite fighter is a far more highly tuned athlete who simply couldnt recover and build quick enough to fight as regularly as they could.

 

I agree about genetics,its similar to how folk critisize a fighter like Fury for being fat.....just because he wasnt genetically blessed with an athletes physique doesnt mean he is any less physically fit than someone who was,some fighters just dont have a 6 pack

 

As regards the treadmills.......i dont know what level of fighters are in your gym but only a very foolish trainer would ask a fighter with a big money fight coming up to go out running in the rain !!......These boys are not getting fit for the army they are peaking their body towards one night no elite level trainer would allow his fighter to risk running the streets in the wet,which like i said,is something we had no choice in years ago.

Edited August 4, 2014 by gnasher16

[neems 2,406]

Even if it isn't an elite level,if it's snowing or the roads are icy roadworks got to be out,surely?

[satan80 358]

Neems are you into black metal? Varg?!

[neems 2,406]

Not so much anymore,I like his writing though.