One For The Apologists.....

[charlie caller 3,654]

 

Thankyou Gentelmen, Black lads serving in our armed forces are serving with the BRITISH army, their ethnicity, is afro caribbean that means they are of African decent, British they may be, born in England they may be but they are not English, and never will be, as Danw says a dog born in a stable is not a horse, tsteve999 you mention the Romans, vikings Normans etc and you make a valid point, however, the Romans interbred with the Britons, creating a largely Romano/celtic hierarchy, that was largely displaced by the incoming GERMANIC peoples that would eventually become known as the English, or Englisc in old language, the vikings stem from the same gothic Germanic tribes that populated northern Europe, the Normans (the "Northmen") are descended from vikings that settled in Normandy, under the leadership of king Rollo in the early 10th century, the flemish again being of Germanic descent, so you see that all the various tribes if you like,are branches of the same tree, that tree being the Gothic Germanic tribes, Pesky if you think that being eligible to play for a football team, denotes a persons English identity, then that genuinely saddens me, the brainwashing that the liberal elites have being forcing upon us, especially post ww2 , and continues today has clearly had an effect on some, the whole plan was and is to deride English as an ethnic identity at every step, while the Scots and Welsh are positively encouraged to embrace and celebrate their ethnicity/identity, to say that you are English in some circles, nowadays seems to instantly brand you as a racist/fascist, well if being proud of my people, ancestory, and proud heritage makes me a racist then so be it.

 

 

Sorry mate but if the Romans bred with the Britons, who bred with the Vikings, who bred with the Normans etc etc that makes them mongrels, it's the fact that they lived in England that made them English. Imo it's the country that forges a people into what they are.

America is a perfect example, made up of every race on earth but 99.9% will say they are Americans and proud of it. They may say they are afro-american or latin-american but they are all american.

The problem we have today is that people are coming from other countries so quickly and in such big numbers that they don't have to mingle and interbreed with the native English, resulting in enclaves of essentially foreigners everywhere, that have no wish or intention of becoming English.

 

No need to be sorry, I forgive your lack of understanding and historical knowledge, the Romano Britons were sent packing into Wales by the Anglo Saxon's after the Roman legions left circa 410 ad, so interbreeding between the invading Germanic peoples and the fleeing Romanised Britons, was miniscule, you see unlike the Romans, who had been here for several centuries, and had Romanised a large proportion of the Britons, the invading Saxons,Jutes, Angles etc, had no wish to integrate with the (by now weak and watered down once proud people) Britons, but instead sought to colonise these shores, and call them homeland, the mix of Viking,Norman, Saxon blood that you term mongrels are merely a mix of the same Germanic peoples, who stem from the same place, so no mongrelisation took place, simply a mixing of peoples of the same origins, America is as you put it a mixture of diverse peoples, that I fully accept, do you not find it a little interesting that a huge proportion of Americans, attach themselves to their NATIVE country/ethnicity? be it as you put it African/American, Irish /American etc I wonder why ? I think perhaps their real feelings of belonging,are to their own kind, the place their ancestors hailed from.

 

The foreigners that you mention, having no desire to become English, can never be English, they may well become British but not English, as English is an ethnic identity, not just a title because you live in England, I assume you accept for example that Indian people are Asian? Assuming you do, lets say that you or I was born in India, would that make us Indian? No it would not, would that make us Asian? no it would not, it would make us Indian by birth IE you would have an Indian passport, but your ethnicity would be caucasian not Asian, and it is the same with anyone of an ethnic minority born here, born in England they may be, but they can never claim English ethnicity

[Brewman 1,192]

Can somebody help me with this then,

I was born in the R.O.I, spent most of my life in the UK.

Dad was born and raised in England and served in the British Army but my mum is Irish as are all my grandparents. It causes some disagreements among mates as with them you have to be one side of the fence or the other. Gives me a chuckle after a few pints as I couldn't give a monkeys lol.

[dixiefried 269]

YOU are what you want to BE !!

Me I'm a ROCKABILLY ...can be from anywhere..Can be ANY colour or Creed ...Common Denominator........THE MUSIC...

 

 

:laugh:

[Ideation 8,216]

So . . . . what we have learnt, in short . . .

 

Is that . . . .

 

The English are just a race of Germanic invaders, settlers and immigrants who moved to this country, created their own rules, pushed out the natives etc.

 

And the only true Britons are found amongst the Welsh, Irish and Scots.

 

Funny that we call England - Lloegyr, which denotes a foreign land, full of foreign people.

[tsteve9999 456]

 

 

Thankyou Gentelmen, Black lads serving in our armed forces are serving with the BRITISH army, their ethnicity, is afro caribbean that means they are of African decent, British they may be, born in England they may be but they are not English, and never will be, as Danw says a dog born in a stable is not a horse, tsteve999 you mention the Romans, vikings Normans etc and you make a valid point, however, the Romans interbred with the Britons, creating a largely Romano/celtic hierarchy, that was largely displaced by the incoming GERMANIC peoples that would eventually become known as the English, or Englisc in old language, the vikings stem from the same gothic Germanic tribes that populated northern Europe, the Normans (the "Northmen") are descended from vikings that settled in Normandy, under the leadership of king Rollo in the early 10th century, the flemish again being of Germanic descent, so you see that all the various tribes if you like,are branches of the same tree, that tree being the Gothic Germanic tribes, Pesky if you think that being eligible to play for a football team, denotes a persons English identity, then that genuinely saddens me, the brainwashing that the liberal elites have being forcing upon us, especially post ww2 , and continues today has clearly had an effect on some, the whole plan was and is to deride English as an ethnic identity at every step, while the Scots and Welsh are positively encouraged to embrace and celebrate their ethnicity/identity, to say that you are English in some circles, nowadays seems to instantly brand you as a racist/fascist, well if being proud of my people, ancestory, and proud heritage makes me a racist then so be it.

 

 

No need to be sorry, I forgive your lack of understanding and historical knowledge, the Romano Britons were sent packing into Wales by the Anglo Saxon's after the Roman legions left circa 410 ad, so interbreeding between the invading Germanic peoples and the fleeing Romanised Britons, was miniscule, you see unlike the Romans, who had been here for several centuries, and had Romanised a large proportion of the Britons, the invading Saxons,Jutes, Angles etc, had no wish to integrate with the (by now weak and watered down once proud people) Britons, but instead sought to colonise these shores, and call them homeland, the mix of Viking,Norman, Saxon blood that you term mongrels are merely a mix of the same Germanic peoples, who stem from the same place, so no mongrelisation took place, simply a mixing of peoples of the same origins, America is as you put it a mixture of diverse peoples, that I fully accept, do you not find it a little interesting that a huge proportion of Americans, attach themselves to their NATIVE country/ethnicity? be it as you put it African/American, Irish /American etc I wonder why ? I think perhaps their real feelings of belonging,are to their own kind, the place their ancestors hailed from.

 

The foreigners that you mention, having no desire to become English, can never be English, they may well become British but not English, as English is an ethnic identity, not just a title because you live in England, I assume you accept for example that Indian people are Asian? Assuming you do, lets say that you or I was born in India, would that make us Indian? No it would not, would that make us Asian? no it would not, it would make us Indian by birth IE you would have an Indian passport, but your ethnicity would be caucasian not Asian, and it is the same with anyone of an ethnic minority born here, born in England they may be, but they can never claim English ethnicity

 

Please forgive me for my ignorance I bow before your huge intellect, but if the Romans were sent packing into Wales wouldn't that mean that the Celts were not quite as pure as you led me to believe earlier on? And if the Angles Saxons, Vikings etc are all basically the same people why are Northern European countries not all the same in attitude, beliefs, body type? I stand by what I said, it was the different type of country that produced the different type of people. And taking your reasoning further, if 500 years ago a man and wife came to this country from say Greece, are all their subsequent descendants not English? If they are when does this happen? Not looking to start a row here, but I can't for the life of me see how you think to be English is purely to be white Anglo Saxon when the truth is most of us are a mix of heaven knows how many nationalities in generations gone by,

[tsteve9999 456]

And the only true Britons are found amongst the Welsh, Irish and Scots.

 

Funny that we call England - Lloegyr, which denotes a foreign land, full of foreign people.

No, your lot are basically eyeties with a few of the real Brits thrown into the mix :laugh:

[pesky1972 5,325]

Pesky if you think that being eligible to play for a football team, denotes a persons English identity, then that genuinely saddens me,the brainwashing that the liberal elites have being forcing upon us, especially post ww2 , and continues today has clearly had an effect on some, the whole plan was and is to deride English as an ethnic identity at every step, while the Scots and Welsh are positively encouraged to embrace and celebrate their ethnicity/identity, to say that you are English in some circles, nowadays seems to instantly brand you as a racist/fascist, well if being proud of my people, ancestory, and proud heritage makes me a racist then so be it.

My post was intended to be a wee bit tongue in cheek...being Scottish we'll take anyone who can play a bit, even if they couldn't point to Scotland on a map.

 

If a man is born in England, to parents born in England, speaks English, spends his whole life living in England and one day realises his dream of pulling on the three lions to represent England in the world cup..., then he deserves to call himself English in my book, regardless of his skin colour...or where his great grandparents were abducted from. I think only a small and dwindling (truly English???) minority would dispute that.

 

I'm certainly not calling you a racist but think you should probably lighten up a bit and accept that it's the 21st century and that England has changed... forever.

Your 'true English' Anglo/Saxon bloodline will continue to be diluted to the point that somewhere down the line it'll no longer exist. What will we call you all then?

Edited July 1, 2014 by pesky1972

[charlie caller 3,654]

So . . . . what we have learnt, in short . . .

 

Is that . . . .

 

The English are just a race of Germanic invaders, settlers and immigrants who moved to this country, created their own rules, pushed out the natives etc.

 

And the only true Britons are found amongst the Welsh, Irish and Scots.

 

Funny that we call England - Lloegyr, which denotes a foreign land, full of foreign people.

You are quite right a race of Germanic invaders, however what you have conveniently forgotten to mention is the fact that you "true Britons" who cowered down under the heel of Rome, and became oh so Roman, actually invited the Saxons into this country as mercenary fighters, as you weak Romanised "Britons" could no longer hold your own against the invading picts (the true scottish, not the modern scots of Irish decent) then by war and conquest the "English" pushed the "Britons" into Wales etc and took the land for their homeland, I make no apology for that, the Celts or "Britons" invaded this country around 500bc, tell me Ideation do you think this country was devoid of people then? Or do you think the "true Britons" conquered the peoples already native to these shores? Ithink we know the answer dont we.

 

And Pesky, lets not forget that great Scottish hero you are all so proud of, good old William Wallace, was of Norman ancestory, the de-Wallace family hailing from I believe Wales after the Normans came, so your great hero was in fact of Viking decent, and Robert the Bruce always bemoaned the loss of the house of Wessex (West Saxons) who I believe he was descended from

[Born Hunter 17,788]

See, this is where it all goes to shit for me. How can we draw rigid lines between ethnic groups? They're blurred lines at best to my mind. If English is an ethnicity but we (the English) are solely the ancestors of Germanic invaders, does that not make us Germanic by ethnicity, as we share the same genetic heritage as the other Germanic peoples? Likewise with more recent immigrant invasions that retain their 1st generation genetic heritage, their ethnicity is for example African but they live and were born in England. Surely then they are no less defined as 'English' than the modern day progeny of the ancient Germanic invaders?

 

Or am I missunderstanding the definition of ethnicity? To my mind it is defined purely by gentics?

 

Also, I don't believe for a minute that the Saxon, Viking etc invasions would have been 100% displacement type events. There would surely have been a degree of intigration and intermarriage and of course raping the women of the native Britons. It's all just too convenient to put everybody in nice boxes with clear labels imo.

[charlie caller 3,654]

I quite agree, and as we were not there, it is rather difficult to make cast iron statements, I accept that, but do remember that England got its name from the Angles(Angeland) and yes of course we are Germanic, anyway have just pm you a link, along the lines of what you asked me earlier mate, enjoy

Edited July 1, 2014 by charlie caller

[Born Hunter 17,788]

I quite agree, and as we were not there, it is rather difficult to make cast iron statements, I accept that, anyway have just pm you a link, along the lines of what you asked me earlier mate, enjoy

 

Thanks, as I said, we may differ on certain views but we share the same interest mate.

[bigfatskinheadterrierman 10]

So . . . . what we have learnt, in short . . . Is that . . . . The English are just a race of Germanic invaders, settlers and immigrants who moved to this country, created their own rules, pushed out the natives etc. And the only true Britons are found amongst the Welsh, Irish and Scots. Funny that we call England - Lloegyr, which denotes a foreign land, full of foreign people.

lol

[pesky1972 5,325]

And Pesky, lets not forget that great Scottish hero you are all so proud of, good old William Wallace, was of Norman ancestory, the de-Wallace family hailing from I believe Wales after the Normans came, so your great hero was in fact of Viking decent, and Robert the Bruce always bemoaned the loss of the house of Wessex (West Saxons) who I believe he was descended from

 

It's not about where they came from, but who they chose to fight for. Same with the England players really.

 

Oneredrim - apologies if I screwed up your thread with my incorrect terminology pal. I genuinely thought the guys in the England strips were English!!!

[charlie caller 3,654]

And Pesky, lets not forget that great Scottish hero you are all so proud of, good old William Wallace, was of Norman ancestory, the de-Wallace family hailing from I believe Wales after the Normans came, so your great hero was in fact of Viking decent, and Robert the Bruce always bemoaned the loss of the house of Wessex (West Saxons) who I believe he was descended from

 

It's not about where they came from, but who they chose to fight for. Same with the England players really.

 

Oneredrim - apologies if I screwed up your thread with my incorrect terminology pal. I genuinely thought the guys in the England strips were English!!!

Well I am sure he will forgive you, so in one breath you say its not about where they come from but who they play for, ok I dont have a problem with that, but then in the next breath you say you thought (and I assume you meant all) the guys in England strips were English? So If I put on a Nigerian football strip, that makes me Nigerian does it? It seems to by your rather confusing logic.

[pesky1972 5,325]

Well I am sure he will forgive you, so in one breath you say its not about where they come from but who they play for, ok I dont have a problem with that, but then in the next breath you say you thought (and I assume you meant all) the guys in England strips were English? So If I put on a Nigerian football strip, that makes me Nigerian does it? It seems to by your rather confusing logic.

 

If you were born in Nigeria to Nigerian born parents etc., etc then yes it makes you (eligible to be called a) Nigerian. There's nothing confusing about that.

 

You're disputing that anyone can be called or consider themselves 'English' unless they can trace their blood lineage back to Anglo-Saxon times. Or does that only apply to black players?