Proven/Unproven Parents

[Printer 34]

Reading the recent post concerning the Airedale Terrier, one point that is noted and incidently always has and no doubt always will with regards to any breeding of working dog is the use of proven dogs rather than unproven.

 

This is a point that I’ve personally never fully got to grips with. I can entirely understand the ideas and the benefits of using dogs from proven working bloodlines, to me that’s paramount, it’s logical and has been proven, but where I get confused is with the following scenario.

 

If you take two terriers from established working bloodlines, both self-entered, both worked faultlessly over a period of years, a couple of terriers you would struggle to equal never mind better, proven beyond doubt, so before anything unforeseen can happen to either dog you have a litter of pups.

 

Now what if the same two terriers had never had the opportunity to work, so being unproven, but still had a litter, would you expect the working qualities passed on to each of the two litters to be identical or not?

 

Anyone able to help with this confusion?

 

Printer

[gnipper 6,435]

I see what your saying, its not like we can read and write from birth is it, its not inherited but you've gotta try and use the dogs you know will do the job and then the instinct and desire will be there.

[pickaxe 23]

may well get pulled to bits for this but,,,,,, i'd go for blood first

[Garypco 2]

Reading the recent post concerning the Airedale Terrier, one point that is noted and incidently always has and no doubt always will with regards to any breeding of working dog is the use of proven dogs rather than unproven.

 

This is a point that I’ve personally never fully got to grips with. I can entirely understand the ideas and the benefits of using dogs from proven working bloodlines, to me that’s paramount, it’s logical and has been proven, but where I get confused is with the following scenario.

 

If you take two terriers from established working bloodlines, both self-entered, both worked faultlessly over a period of years, a couple of terriers you would struggle to equal never mind better, proven beyond doubt, so before anything unforeseen can happen to either dog you have a litter of pups.

 

Now what if the same two terriers had never had the opportunity to work, so being unproven, but still had a litter, would you expect the working qualities passed on to each of the two litters to be identical or not?

 

Anyone able to help with this confusion?

Very interesting personaly id go to the proven stock theory but genetically the blood should be the base line for the breeding,if the breeding is there then theoretically thats all you need for working drive an ability that goes to anything from terriers down to lurchers even hpr and spaniels,il probably get ripped apart for this but who cares,you've got a point mate when we need a greyhound for our lurcher breeding how many proven working greyhounds are out there,if a terrier is kept for showing and used cos he,s genetically better then try it,if the pups dont make the grade simply dont use him again,odds on some will some wont,its the same work wise,the wastage is always there thats what makes our sport so unique i suppose,if it was so easy would we carry on,i know of an instance where an amazing terrier was put over about  15 bitches and good proven bitches,he never sired anything worth keeping,i had a spaniel the best dog i ever had he served about 20 bitches over a 9 yr period not one pup made the grade for me,a couple made it but they were very late starters,if a dog has never worked but potentialy the breeding is there its a big chance to take but,its just as big a chance in workindg stock nothings guaranteed to work no matter what only time tells the truth!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Printer

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Garypco 2]

mine mixed up hereit is again to sort out any confusion!!!

 

Very interesting personaly id go to the proven stock theory but genetically the blood should be the base line for the breeding,if the breeding is there then theoretically thats all you need for working drive an ability that goes to anything from terriers down to lurchers even hpr and spaniels,il probably get ripped apart for this but who cares,you've got a point mate when we need a greyhound for our lurcher breeding how many proven working greyhounds are out there,if a terrier is kept for showing and used cos he,s genetically better then try it,if the pups dont make the grade simply dont use him again,odds on some will some wont,its the same work wise,the wastage is always there thats what makes our sport so unique i suppose,if it was so easy would we carry on,i know of an instance where an amazing terrier was put over about 15 bitches and good proven bitches,he never sired anything worth keeping,i had a spaniel the best dog i ever had he served about 20 bitches over a 9 yr period not one pup made the grade for me,a couple made it but they were very late starters,if a dog has never worked but potentialy the breeding is there its a big chance to take but,its just as big a chance in working stock nothings guaranteed to work no matter what only time tells the truth!!!! good luck with whichever way you go just keep workin the dogs!!!

[swanseajack 227]

Excellent question Printer. I'm sure you're gonna get a lot of response to this !

 

In a perfect world we would all breed from Proven working Stock, from Proven working Bloodlines. When it's in them and in them for generations the chances are there's gonna be less wastage..

 

The scenario I think you're pointing at is, what if it's from working lines and through no fault of it's own (owner's illness, time or whatever) hasn't done much work... would you still breed from it if there were no other options available... there could be plenty of reasons for this too, I'll give an example:

 

There's five dogs bred from an outstanding Sire at a ripe old age.. Sire passes on to the happy hunting ground... Four of the five go to working homes, one goes to a mate to keep the cats away from his pigeon shed.... never does any real work.

 

Of the other four, over the years and after countless good seasons they end up losing their lives gallantly and were never bred from....?? there's only one dog of this line left....

 

Now there are no other options except the two below..

 

Would you: A. Use the dog that's been in the yard most of his life...

 

or

 

B. Use a worker that's possibly (or probably) had the blood thinned out somewhat by poor breeding be it weaker lines, show infusion or whatever...

 

Whichever one you would use is no guarantee that workers will be produced, as there's no guarantee ever that a perfect litter, perfect breeding line exists...

 

I'll stick my neck out and say that I would use A. I might be wrong but I could be 75% sure the Blood lines are there...

 

If I used B. and the pups threw back to show or weaker lines then the line is lost forever.. once taken out it's hard to put back in ....

 

Just my opinion and I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of theory and relative answers to this......... should make for interesting reading..

 

It was rumoured that Shergar wasn't taken by the IRA he was nutted because he couldn't sire a Donkey Derby winner.... Insurance pay out....

[fellman 116]

the blood "should" be enough to start off with .....BUT after that it should be proven stuff .........does that make sense?

yis fellman

[Limb 31]

Having read about the airdale scenario in these circumstances i'd of used that dog too, but i'm sure if these shores were blessed with working airdales of the correct blood and working ability i'd have done my homework and searched out a suitable proven worker.

[Guest J.P.]

Reading the recent post concerning the Airedale Terrier, one point that is noted and incidently always has and no doubt always will with regards to any breeding of working dog is the use of proven dogs rather than unproven.

 

This is a point that I’ve personally never fully got to grips with. I can entirely understand the ideas and the benefits of using dogs from proven working bloodlines, to me that’s paramount, it’s logical and has been proven, but where I get confused is with the following scenario.

 

If you take two terriers from established working bloodlines, both self-entered, both worked faultlessly over a period of years, a couple of terriers you would struggle to equal never mind better, proven beyond doubt, so before anything unforeseen can happen to either dog you have a litter of pups.

 

Now what if the same two terriers had never had the opportunity to work, so being unproven, but still had a litter, would you expect the working qualities passed on to each of the two litters to be identical or not?

 

Anyone able to help with this confusion?

 

Printer

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The blood is the same Printer---the difference is KNOWING the truth--or GUESSING about it.

In working and proving them--you are proving that they DESERVE to be bred--whether or not they produce workers is another story..but as with most things concerning genetics--it's all a gamble..and by proving the stock you are increasing your odds of success--there are no guarantees--but you do everything you can to put the odds in your favor.

[J Darcy 5,871]

now i was once chatting to an old and well respected dog man in the bull circuit. Well, we gets onto the subject of bloodlines and he gave me a little scanario....imagine two dogs, litter brother and sister...the sister goes to a pet home and the brother is a great worker yet dies.....he said he would breed off the untested, untried bitch without hesitation...and the reason? because she has the same blood.....now im not going to comment personally, but thats what he told me, and that guy has had some of the very best dogs....food for thought indeed

[Guest potter]

breeding has to be right,ideally you want to see generation after generation of worker with hopefully the same working traits imo but without working them how do you know what youve got?

[Guest Fell & Moorland WTC SW area]

Line Breeding, Inbreeding and a little outcross now and then will keep you there or thereabouts.

If the perfect scenario isn't there, then go for four fautless Grand Parents. Many, many times not so good Terriers have produced better offspring than themselves, Spartacus from KG being one a lot will have heard of. A fair bit of his offspring have been better than him. I know guys who have placed really tightly bred Dogs in Pet Homes, so that if anything serious were to happen the blood is there still to use.

The loosely bred Dogs are more of a gamble, but I would say in the example given by the original Poster, try to go four FOUR fautless Grand Parents also where there are Brothers and Sisters who have worked out ok.

 

TRUST ME the easy part is buying a Pup and bringing it on...the hardest job is to Breed for what you want. Buy from guys who have done the REALLY HARD foundation work.

 

Pickaxe I know where you are coming from.....

[Stabs 3]

now i was once chatting to an old and well respected dog man in the bull circuit. Well, we gets onto the subject of bloodlines and he gave me a little scanario....imagine two dogs, litter brother and sister...the sister goes to a pet home and the brother is a great worker yet dies.....he said he would breed off the untested, untried bitch without hesitation...and the reason?  because she has the same blood.....now im not going to comment personally, but thats what he told me, and that guy has had some of the very best dogs....food for thought indeed

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Reminds me of the old adage of testing the dog to it's limits, leaving it down whether it wins, loses or draws and if it dies dead game, you then breed from it's brother.

[Guest HAWKEYE]

is that not what a lot of greyhound men do????

Race one sapling and keep another for the breeding.Ive heard of a few doing that . maybe Trev could shed some detail on this?

 

I dont think its the blood attributes etc, That differentiate betwwen identically bred animalls, I think work is a frame of mind that is cultured and nutured as the dog learns its craft...Some dogs need learning ,,,others not as much...some arenrt shown the correct way to learn... A VERY INTERESTING TOPIC!!

[Guest oneredtrim]

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Edited January 21, 2008 by oneredtrim