From Wolf To Dog

[Casso 1,261]

Believe what you wish , my angle has always been that we as hunters of dogs have more of an insight into the true nature of the canine and what it's priorities are,

 

To downgrade the dog as is commonly done as the campsite shit heap remover is a clear misunderstand of the value of the hound to mankind and a bond forged through sharing the same goal and common socialibility,

 

Happy hunting long may it last, for if we lose it we lose a clear understand of what makes a dog loyal to man as a canine athlete and not as a rat,

Best of luck

[Neal 1,873]

I'd agree with elements from both sides. I know that modern dogs are descended from wolves but I believe our ancestors would have selectively bred from those individuals which were more amenable to handling as one of the essential attributes. As a result, "friendly" wolves became modern dogs whereas "unfriendly" (or rather more wary) wolves became modern wolves. As a result, I doubt if the wolf which became the dog is with us any more...other than in our kennels or curled up at our feet.

 

Incidentally, mine get meat, bones and fruit and veg. They do occasionally get carbs but only if the kids have left some or we've cooked too much.

[Casso 1,261]

I'd agree with elements from both sides. I know that modern dogs are descended from wolves but I believe our ancestors would have selectively bred from those individuals which were more amenable to handling as one of the essential attributes. As a result, "friendly" wolves became modern dogs whereas "unfriendly" (or rather more wary) wolves became modern wolves. As a result, I doubt if the wolf which became the dog is with us any more...other than in our kennels or curled up at our feet.

 

Incidentally, mine get meat, bones and fruit and veg. They do occasionally get carbs but only if the kids have left some or we've cooked too much.

I understand what your saying but it takes a giant leap of faith to believe early man even understood it's own reproductive process let alone another species , early dog would have still been breeding uncontrollable with whatever it chooses,

 

The problem been here that it had to be the dog that threw its hand in with man not the other way round , if a bitch had pups who was social with humans , before long the pups would be socialised too

Edited May 22, 2014 by Casso

[dogs-n-natives 1,182]

Dog n natives I'd agree meat is a large part but part is the operative word, its about balance and excepting dogs are not wolves any more than I'm a Neanderthal, lol. I will carry genes from northern European Neanderthals and my dogs will carry genes from northern European wolves but we have moved on and our bodies have evolved to suit who we are now not what we where then.

 

Stabba those teeth are designed for meat but as Malt points out evolution is not equal on all parts and Pandas show teeth seem to lag . The teeth of carnivore types that are at the omnivores end of the scale, like dogs and bears, tend to have teeth that can fulfil the mixed diets in comparison to obligate carnivores like cats who's dentition and digestion are less able to deal with this mixed diet.

( just a thought if dogs came to carbs that were cooked they would have less pressure to develop their grinding.)

 

My guess is that man captured puppys, and from then onwards things started to fall into place.

 

I really cannot ever see a wild wolf 'coming round the campfire', they are a wild animal and extremely wary of human beings. it is a human's trait to 'gather' animals that he thinks will benefit him, like we have done for thousands of years, horses, poultry, singing birds, cats, dogs, stock even fish......the list is endless.

I always thought the same, the wolf domesticating itself that way never sat right with me either

[Saluki246 1,053]

 

 

My guess is that man captured puppys, and from then onwards things started to fall into place.

 

I really cannot ever see a wild wolf 'coming round the campfire', they are a wild animal and extremely wary of human beings. it is a human's trait to 'gather' animals that he thinks will benefit him, like we have done for thousands of years, horses, poultry, singing birds, cats, dogs, stock even fish......the list is endless.

What you're doing is looking at the wolf of today as believing it's the same animal that the dog begat from, wolves today are remenence of a creature that has been condemned since the very beginning of the written word and a total social f**k up as far as humans go,

 

I watched a documentary years ago about a young female Scandinavian scientist who made contact with wolves whom had never had contact with humans before and the interaction was striking, the pack of wolves showed curiosity not fear , they hung round and enjoyed her company some of the young yearlings even play bowed , so for me it would not have taken a great leap of imagination for some of the clan to go off together hunting or scavenging with humans

 

Casso...As someone who has been involved in wildlife programmes I can safely say that I wouldn't believe an animal/pack filmed was wild...unless i saw it in the flesh. We've each got our own opinions though....

 

 

A good friend of mine, studying for a degree in biology, went out to ellesmere island in the artic where the wolves rarely see humans, if at all, they came in very close and they could study the whole pack well. A zoologist with them, explained that its the only way they could study them, as most packs of wolves are very elusive..

[roybo 2,873]

I think domestication,would have happened many many times,and stealing pups,banished individuals living alone scavenging,and the odd 'friendly' wolf would have contributed to the process along with matings with different types of wolf , and coyotes ,as well as dogs from different areas,

As saluki 246 said above some wolf packs even now allow people fairly close,coupled with humans feeding them,the odd thrown bone etc you can imagine a some within a few generations

Learning to trust humans.then when pups were about, being imprinted .if you look at the Iranian wolf it's very simular to present day dogs/dingos or pariah dogs so the step isn't massive.we see it happening now with town foxes.Just they haven't got the same use to mankind as early dogs did.

Edited May 23, 2014 by roybo

[Casso 1,261]

http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2014/05/did-dogs-help-drive-mammoths-their-graves#.U4h-_DCfZNU.facebook

[Tiercel 6,986]

An interesting thread, it seems every theory has it's supporters. I suppose holes could be picked in every theory of the origin of the domesticated canine, that's what makes it really interesting. The last link that was put up contained a lot of if's and possibilities but no actual proof. The idea that dogs are descended from wolves is a widely held theory, and really there is at the moment no evidence to prove otherwise.

 

But what if the dogs ancestors was actually not the wolf, but a separate species akin to the wolf? The reason I asked the question is that evolution is still occurring today, but all the species and sub-species of wolf they do seem to have evolved very little over the last few thousand years. Since the beginning of writings the wolf has been, basically the same as it is today. An animal that has very little diversity in it's core design. Yes they vary in size dependant of the land that they live on but other than that, the common denominator is they are a nomadic pack animal.

 

It could be argued that the reason they are still like that in the wild, is that natural selection still takes place and only the most wolf like males get to mate. While once man got hold of the animal he bred for traits, size or temperament against the natural order of fitness and strength. To be honest I have not a clue which of of these is the correct theory, but will enjoy reading other people thoughts on the subject.

 

TC

[hutch6 550]

My guess is that man captured puppys, and from then onwards things started to fall into place.

 

I really cannot ever see a wild wolf 'coming round the campfire', they are a wild animal and extremely wary of human beings. it is a human's trait to 'gather' animals that he thinks will benefit him, like we have done for thousands of years, horses, poultry, singing birds, cats, dogs, stock even fish......the list is endless.

 

Hmmmm. I'd have to refer you to the San Diego (apparently it means Whale's Vagina in German ) Wolf Park who have been trying to find the stage in a pup's development where they can domesticate them. Straight from birth up until 30weeks and they still cannot domesticate them despite them being born from captive wolves.

They cannot contain them with wire fences etc and a few even learned how to open the gates in order to escape.

 

Now, if modern humans with high chain link fencing and bolts on gates can't contain them, how do you suggest pre-iron age man domesticated them and ensured they didn't do a runner after a while like the wolves these guys have tried to domesticate have done?

 

Genetic research has suggested that there is some "wild" gene in the wolf make-up that no mater how much you breed them they will always contain the "wild" gene. Dogs, however, do not contain this "wild" gene so breeding dogs to wolves would produce some "wild" and some not "wild". Once bred wild, always wild.

 

ETA: It is this genetic switch over that holds the whole secret to how the descendant of both wolves and dogs split into two groups - wolf and dog.

Edited June 10, 2014 by hutch6

[skycat 6,173]

There has to be some 'missing link' just as there was in human evolution.

[hutch6 550]

There has to be some 'missing link' just as there was in human evolution.

 

Exactly!! It's the link before wolf and dog became two species (could eb even before wolf, dog, fox, jackal and other canids split) that holds the key. This "link" somehow evolved with a discarded or lapsed "wild" gene.

[Neal 1,873]

...and it's the missing link which no longer exists.

[Tiercel 6,986]

...and it's the missing link which no longer exists.

Except in the DNA of dogs, perhaps?

 

TC

[Casso 1,261]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2264622/Wolves-versus-dogs-Why-wolf-mans-best-friend-Scientists-dogs-domesticated.html#ixzz35gXwUilI

[BIGLURKS 874]

Good read that casso