Random Question

[Bolero 67]

  On 26/12/2020 at 18:33, Greb147 said:

Bolero I've seen those pics before, Roy from Rochdale posted those pics on a Bull and Terrier group on FB. 

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I have no id who Roy from is or where in Rochdale is but I would damn sure like to know how he could possibly post pictures on my dog that are from my phone that have no one has seen literally untill today. I have never put a photo of any of my dogs on the internet untill today. So your either trying to rile me up or who knows 

[jeemes 4,524]

  On 25/12/2020 at 14:27, Bolero said:

Correct but the only way to get to the point where the DD is the only set with the line is by doing those exact systems of breeding you are calling irrelevant. Breeding  unrelated dogs of the same together when trying to do what your describing to get DD as the only possible combination in the gene pool won’t work because of the  two unrelated dogs not being likely to have those genes in the same combination and the same location on the chromosomes. 

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I think I see whats happening here. You see Im not a geneticist, and Im only interested in breeding dogs,and so have a basic grasp of how genes work and influence offspring. What I tried to do here is pass on what Ive learned and to put it in a way that people like me can understand. One big point Im trying to make is that what over rides systems  of breeding daughter to father etc etc is the paramount importance of using only stock ( that is already the product of breeding in) that is vigorous and healthy aswell as expressing the desired traits. I would reiterate that breeding in to any kind of fixed system for the sake of the system is wrong and the mating of close relations should be governed by quality and health of the stock available. 

As said Im not a geneticist and right at the beginning of my post I state that I am simplifying things to make it easier to understand, which is the only way I can learn the part of a very complex science that I need to learn that relates to dog breeding. Please try not to get lost in the minutiae of things. The most useful thing Ive seen on this thread is somebody printing out Raymond Oppenheimers 20 rules of breeding. Notice RH is putting his vast knowledge into simple words for us all to understand. Ive read those rules over and over for the past 20 odd years at least. This is the body of the thing. Understanding, not searching google for point scoring detail and wanting to sound clever. 

[Bolero 67]

  On 26/12/2020 at 19:01, jeemes said:

I think I see whats happening here. You see Im not a geneticist, and Im only interested in breeding dogs,and so have a basic grasp of how genes work and influence offspring. What I tried to do here is pass on what Ive learned and to put it in a way that people like me can understand. One big point Im trying to make is that what over rides systems  of breeding daughter to father etc etc is the paramount importance of using only stock ( that is already the product of breeding in) that is vigorous and healthy aswell as expressing the desired traits. I would reiterate that breeding in to any kind of fixed system for the sake of the system is wrong and the mating of close relations should be governed by quality and health of the stock available. 

As said Im not a geneticist and right at the beginning of my post I state that I am simplifying things to make it easier to understand, which is the only way I can learn the part of a very complex science that I need to learn that relates to dog breeding. Please try not to get lost in the minutiae of things. The most useful thing Ive seen on this thread is somebody printing out Raymond Oppenheimers 20 rules of breeding. Notice RH is putting his vast knowledge into simple words for us all to understand. Ive read those rules over and over for the past 20 odd years at least. This is the body of the thing. Understanding, not searching google for point scoring detail and wanting to sound clever. 

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I hear ya. I missed where said y out were just simplifying it I apologize and your posts on the subject are definitely some of the best I’ve seen one here. Again I apologize I wasn’t meaning to make it seem like you didn’t know what you were saying if it came out that may it’s my fault wasn’t my intentions. 

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

Sweet Mike .Didn’t have to go all gangs of New York just to apologise though .Loads of us on here got no idea about genetics but have produced good stock ,stock good enough to work in any company which after all is  why we are here ain’t it .

Im not in agreement about having to start with related stock ,just good tested stock though I can see the benefits .Back breeding as I now know it as is the fastest way to set traits with of course culling along the way .I havnt the heart for it nowadays but in my heyday thought nothing of it .

The  concept isn’t new ,was explained to me 37 years ago by a chap who had no concept of genetics either but knew how to breed a working terrier .

Culling that which dosnt fit the directive is the most hardest thing to do having bred ,nurtured and watched it grow on but cull it you must to stop that part of your experiment ever surfacing again .

Gifting so called surplus has a habit of getting reused ,recycled and back at you in the form of someone’s take of a decent worker .Seen it and it creates huge rifts between mates .Work what you can keep ,cull what dosnt make your grade and choose brood and studs from your best .Some lads breed within a line ,father daughter ,father niece ,nephew niece even brother sister but to my mind the variants are too great to see its full potential .

Back breeding to a tested stud over daughters and nieces has got to be the fastest way to set genes whilst looking forward ,watching up coming dogs for that next stud ,keeping a spare in mind too .The bitches will fall in line after the desired traits are set in the stock you deem as your best .Once you see it for what it is everything else becomes easy and predictable ,some may say boringly efficient .

 

[Greb147 6,809]

  On 26/12/2020 at 19:43, foxdropper said:

Sweet Mike .Didn’t have to go all gangs of New York just to apologise though .Loads of us on here got no idea about genetics but have produced good stock ,stock good enough to work in any company which after all is  why we are here ain’t it .

Im not in agreement about having to start with related stock ,just good tested stock though I can see the benefits .Back breeding as I now know it as is the fastest way to set traits with of course culling along the way .I havnt the heart for it nowadays but in my heyday thought nothing of it .

The  concept isn’t new ,was explained to me 37 years ago by a chap who had no concept of genetics either but knew how to breed a working terrier .

Culling that which dosnt fit the directive is the most hardest thing to do having bred ,nurtured and watched it grow on but cull it you must to stop that part of your experiment ever surfacing again .

Gifting so called surplus has a habit of getting reused ,recycled and back at you in the form of someone’s take of a decent worker .Seen it and it creates huge rifts between mates .Work what you can keep ,cull what dosnt make your grade and choose brood and studs from your best .Some lads breed within a line ,father daughter ,father niece ,nephew niece even brother sister but to my mind the variants are too great to see its full potential .

Back breeding to a tested stud over daughters and nieces has got to be the fastest way to set genes whilst looking forward ,watching up coming dogs for that next stud ,keeping a spare in mind too .The bitches will fall in line after the desired traits are set in the stock you deem as your best .Once you see it for what it is everything else becomes easy and predictable ,some may say boringly efficient .

 

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You don't necessarily have to knock them over the head to cull them though. Excluding them from the breeding programme is adequate if you haven't got the stomach for it. 

Of course if you can't find homes for the wastage they are going to be costing you money if you couldn't bring yourself to cull them. 

[jeemes 4,524]

  On 26/12/2020 at 19:06, Bolero said:

I hear ya. I missed where said y out were just simplifying it I apologize and your posts on the subject are definitely some of the best I’ve seen one here. Again I apologize I wasn’t meaning to make it seem like you didn’t know what you were saying if it came out that may it’s my fault wasn’t my intentions. 

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Thanks for your reply Bolero. No problem at all. Im sorry I didnt get to reply to you before it all sunk into the usual forum slanging match. ATB J.

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

  On 26/12/2020 at 19:50, Greb147 said:

You don't necessarily have to knock them over the head to cull them though. Excluding them from the breeding programme is adequate if you haven't got the stomach for it. 

Of course if you can't find homes for the wastage they are going to be costing you money if you couldn't bring yourself to cull them. 

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“Gifting so called surplus has a habit of getting reused ,recycled and back at you in the form of someone’s take of a decent worker .Seen it and it creates huge rifts between mates .Work what you can keep ,cull what dosnt make your grade and choose brood and studs from your best “

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

  On 26/12/2020 at 19:55, jeemes said:

Thanks for your reply Bolero. No problem at all. Im sorry I didnt get to reply to you before it all sunk into the usual forum slanging match. ATB J.

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May have sunk a bit but you now know who you are talking to .I’m about 4 pages ahead of most posters

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

  On 26/12/2020 at 19:50, Greb147 said:

You don't necessarily have to knock them over the head to cull them though. Excluding them from the breeding programme is adequate if you haven't got the stomach for it. 

Of course if you can't find homes for the wastage they are going to be costing you money if you couldn't bring yourself to cull them. 

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Name me one person who gifts so called culls mate .Who wants their name attached to a jacker .Pet homes are a possible but even these have a way of biting you on the arse when it starts killing cats or whatever .

Until you are actually focused on producing something decent, all outsider guessing is just that .It consumes you fully ,nobody else matters only opinions from those respected .

The only thing that matters is work ,work and more work .Everybody involved in a line needs to be onboard with this notion as well as culling .

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

Yes mate .I’ve done this before but mates mates ain’t no mates of mine I’ve found .

[Flacko 1,755]

Hope that’s cleared up now 

[jeemes 4,524]

  On 26/12/2020 at 20:12, foxdropper said:

Name me one person who gifts so called culls mate .Who wants their name attached to a jacker .Pet homes are a possible but even these have a way of biting you on the arse when it starts killing cats or whatever .

Until you are actually focused on producing something decent, all outsider guessing is just that .It consumes you fully ,nobody else matters only opinions from those respected .

The only thing that matters is work ,work and more work .Everybody involved in a line needs to be onboard with this notion as well as culling .

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Couldnt agree more. Focus is the thing and the ability not to delude yourself. If you havnt the stomach for culling then best not breed anything seriously. 

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

Agreed mate ,thank f**k for that eh .

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

Must be 5 /6 years since the other thread Jeemes .Hows the breeding going if you don’t mind me asking .

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

Well I guess f**k all’s changed there then .