Is it possible

[higgins 75]

just be grateful you have the best of both worlds,at the moment you have a choice

of terriers to do the job,match the earth to the terrier and you can't go wrong,as for changing

a terrier's attributes,i think you will be splitting hairs,a terrier is best at what he does whether bayer or mute,put the terrier in the right circumstances and they excell,no point in trying to change them,

Higgins.

[Kye 77]

Buy no means am i in anyway as exsperianced as many of you lads, but i hate hearing about dogs being worked sore...im not on about taking them out with a few tiny 'dings' on them, or a few old scabs, but working them while genuinly sore, is imo, not humane...just my opinion of course...

 

For anyone that has had to do anything on an injury, you will know how it feels...hitting your thumb with a hammer, then hitting it again five minutes later...or having to use a hand after it has been broken...breaking an anckle, then having to walk...imo, its the same as working a dog sore, but having been bred to do a certain task, they WILL work...imo, asking a genuinly hard dog to bay, is like asking a Hound to be mute...its not in them, so they dont wanna do it...its not in there nature.

 

You dont run Lurchers with broken toes do you?...or Fly Hawks with broken wings?...or race horses with broken legs?...imo, there is no difference.

 

All the bets guys..

 

Kye,..

[lucky 578]

good reply Kye, we have all probably done it at one time, i have when i was younger when i could'nt always wait to get back out, but looking back it was pretty stupid and could of ruined a good dog just through eagerness.

[Wilky 0]

The terriers you have are obviously sound and with that you are in a very good position, as for hard dogs baying, personally I think it depends on what you determine a bayer, I've owned and witnessed hard dogs that have had a change of working style and started to give tongue but continue to hold ground, but very very few, most real deal hard dogs work that way because it's the only way they know how to AND because they're good at it.

 

More often than not and this is only from personal experience, the hard dogs that start to give tongue have just taken the first step backwards down the ladder and after a few more digs they start to stand off, then they'll give ground, even letting the quarry past and this I believe is because they weren't really a hard dog in the first place, just a very keen youngster that thought they could bully things about.

 

Finding the dog that you describe, a sounder that will take it's quarry to a stop end and keep it there by applying pressure and taking hold when the quarry wants out, is like winning the lottery, but personally I believe that without the hard terriers, then there would be no terriers, or certainly a hell of a lot less, because gradually you would be breeding terriers that were less and less determined, until every dig meant trenching on to reach the quarry.

 

So for me, long live the hard dogs (and bitches) because these are the terriers that will produce the goods for the future. And they should be bred from, because every outing with a real deal hard terrier could be it's last outing, this, like many other lads, I know from personal experience, it's a sickener, but that's terrierwork.

[alimac 882]

If a hard dog is worked enough and worked when a little delicate it will soon use its voice the problem arrises when they do not get enough graf t lay offs are no good IMO.

agree 100%

 

 

kye,,, your taking the term "working a terrier sore" a little far..... its silly to compare this to us walking on fractured ankle,running a lurcher with a broken toe or flying a hawk with a broken wing.... no one has ever come close to suggesting that you work a terrier with a broken jaw

[TOPPER 1,809]

I AGREE WITH WILKY ON THAT ONE BUT IN THIS MODERN AGE WE USE LOCATERS SO CAN FIND THE DOG A LOT EASIER YOU DONT NEED A BAYER TO TELL YOU WHERE HE IS THE LOCATER DOES THAT LET THEM SETTLE AND START DIGGIN, A HARD DOG EVERYTIME FOR ME!!

[Guest pikey]

More often than not and this is only from personal experience, the hard dogs that start to give tongue have just taken the first step backwards down the ladder and after a few more digs they start to stand off, then they'll give ground, even letting the quarry past and this I believe is because they weren't really a hard dog in the first place, just a very keen youngster that thought they could bully things about.

A HARD DOG THAT GIVES TONGUE IS LIKE A BOXER THROWING JABS, JUST WAITING TO GET IN ON THE RIGHT HOLD, LIKE SETTING THE GAME UP, SO HE CAN GET THE BEST AND SAFEST HOLD. I THINK EVERONE ONE THAT HAS A HARD DOG AT SOME TIME WANTED THERE DOG TO BAY A LITTLE. MOST DOGS THAT WERE 100% HARD, AND STARTED TO BAY TURNED OUT TO BE BETTER DOGS FOR MOST TERRIER MEN, THE REASON THE HARD DOG DOES THIS IS BECAUSE HE IS EDUCATED TO THE GAME, BECAUSE HE BAYS DOES NOT MEAN THE GAME CAN MOVE HIM !!

[Guest pip]

That last dig of mine the bitch sounded for about 2 minutes then went to holts sounds like just what your explaining p***y,she s starting to know her game better.Her second dig 3 seasons ago she had the fox by the front leg didn t let go for a wiser grip and didn t seem to care either,now i notice she s gripping more tactically,and although shes still hard she s working her stuff too.

[J Darcy 5,871]

Cracking post p***y .....

[m.r1 7]

Hello All

 

Good post, always a good post when there is a variety of replies and very few silly replies at that. I personally like my terriers to work their quarry gamely, gamely in the sense they boss their quarry out or in to a stop and if the latter keeps it there until dug to.

 

In my opinion there is a difference between hard and mute terriers and the termonoligy, earth work requires a variety of approach of a type of terrier and I do agree with comments about breeding hard to hard or should the termonology be game to game!

 

Dont want to be a smart arse as I have precviousley been called! but its the wordage that generates comments, I will revert the whole topic, here are a few comments and I look forward to replies especially from the past comment providers

 

Hard, what is your definaintion of Hard? How hard, no reverse until death, or hard it takes the punishment and no reverse, or hard because of no sound what so ever

 

Mute, mute through stalking its quarry or having hold, Mute to me doesnt mean hard

 

Game, works weak in weak out, takes the knocks, still does it, when the going gets tough, it stays, takes it and gives it back as much and all this not in 2 ft 20 min digs but when the Law allowed all day

 

Back to the original request for advice, "singing lessons"

[Guest pip]

My mate had a terrier a decent dog worked a lot and was seen dug by different fellas all whos comment was" very hard not a mute out of him",my mate knew different,that while he was mute he wasn t always hard,fact was while he done the job well he was jukie.he would of sat close but just because he was silent lads assumed he was in grips and he wasn t always he was just waiting for the right grip.I seen another terrier who took a grip and despite being hammered and dragged about he wouldn t change his grip intentionally.Then ive seen other terriers that would sound grip and then if it didn t suit break ,sound and grip until it got the right hold.In my opinion the first dog was mute,the second dog was hard and the third dog which was my first black terrier was game as he done this week in week out,in fact he got more than was wise for me to give him and i wouldn t give him it if i had him still.

This is just my opinion of course before i get a whole verbal beating

[Wilky 0]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying there p***y, maybe I just didn't explain properly, night shift an all, what I meant by stepping down the ladder, was reffering to the hard mute dogs that just steam in and take instant control, most of the terriers I've seen and owned that work like this always work like this, and to be honest, I like a control freak of a terrier, if they can back them up quickly and take hold, normally the one hold will last until you break through, it's when this type of dog starts giving tongue I find it suspect. And yes I've had dogs that I wish would make a bit of noise, because it's nice to know what's going on isn't it, but I still like a good hard dog, especially if it's going to be put over the bitches.

 

And I also agree, if a terrier learns sense or becomes educated, then yes it can't do anything but be beneficial to the terrier, but it's not always that they learn sense, some of them just get as though they've had enough of the hard knocks and then start to degrade and I'm sure you'll have seen a few of these, a good nip and tuck terrier that'll give tongue and that holds it's quarry where you want it is priceless and will doubtless see a lot of work, as it's going to spend less time under the lamp. But I also think a lot of the nip and tuck merchants are much too stand offish.

 

I think the hard dogs that learn sense are the hard type that haven't got the knack of the one off hold and get tanked up trying to get hold any way they can, because if this type don't learn sense, then they are on the way out, one way or another and it's normally shock that gets them through the night or the next day. It's these supposedly hard dogs that I think are not the real thing, they're like the school yard bullies, it soon becomes apparent that they're lacking in the moral fibre department. And by that I mean the ones that don't learn, they just go down the ladder.

 

And on the subject of hard dogs, it can be decieving, I had the pleasure of digging over a blinding dog called Daz, that could kill foxes unbelievably quickly and was known in some circles as a hard dog, but myself and the lad who owned him, knew he wasn't, he just had a phenomenal knack of getting the right hold and choking foxes if he was worked in the right places. At the time we were working this dog we were doing a big estate in Lincolnshire, where the earths were all easy sand jobs, 3 - 5 footers and the dog made it look easy, but when worked this dog in the rocks on our home turf, if he got one in a tight spot he was a different dog, he would just bay away, knowing he would get the worst of the deal had he tried it on, that's sense to me and he was a good dog for it.

 

On the other side of the coin we're working a bitch now that just steams in without a sound, gets hold and demolishes foxes, she's hard definately and we were lucky to come by her, she was bred by a Mancunian lad who's well enough known and only keeps this type of dog, but she's limited by her working style, nonetheless she's a bit special.

 

I guess it's horses for courses and this is only my opinion, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I think it's a good thing that people have different opinions and a liking for different types of terriers, but I still firmly believe that the real McCoy hard dogs are what will breed the terriers of the future, for me it's this type of dog that should be used as stud, they can shove this sticking a bit of bull into them.

[elisderyn 496]

If the dog is truely a "hard dog" I dont think you can ever turn them into a "Bayer" but a dog can certainly learn & apply his/her aggression in a way that leads to less punishment . I totally agree that there is always a place for a good "hard" dog & these terriers are the cornerstone of good breeding lines but unless you have a mixed kennell of different working types a hard dog can be pretty useless purely from the sense that he's laid up too much adequetly test as digging dog...... ......I speak from experience when I say that as much as I appreciate a hard terrier , on times they can make a very straightforward dig an absolute nightmare where instead of baying & nipping their quarry they needlesly take the fight to them which can result in a back & for palavour that turns a few minutes of work into a few hours of bloody battling !!!!!!.............A hard dog certainly has a place & in my case its next to the bayer in one kennell & the mixer in the other..........

[Guest pip]

Good post Wilky keep the bull out its a different game ,my father in law whos speciality was big dogs reckoned a good hard fell was as game if not gamer than the bull,argument being the bulls had to do 6 mins the fells had to do a job and it could take hours and they had to do it in the dark,on enemy territory.NO BULL

[Guest FOXDOG]

I wouldn never sell my terriers to a tosser like you