Added Bull/staff Blood

[catchwrestler 31]

Great post Catchwrestler....that's what it's all about!

Sadly she had to be pts in the end due to cancer but great memorys walking out with her , i wish my current lurcher had a few of her quality's

[uru 341]

here's the whole film for ya...you'll have to fast forward to the staffs lol...

 

https://myspace.com/cousins81/video/ub40-labour-of-love-film/2408790

 

Yokel.

Yokel

Yes you are right,thank you.that brings back memori of better days(dogs not the drink ).

I'd forgotten till this thread,about 8? yrs ago,a friend of ours bred a Patterdale to a staff and got a very sharp,light brindle that he cropped the ears on.I swear,to the best of my memory,she was the sie of miniature pinscher.

 

 

Many good posts,lots of good info and memories.And I'd guess,that the dogs we're/I'm talking about,are alive and thriving well privately,in the hands & yards of men who are keeping them to/for themselves and their friends,to preserve and prevent the ruination of them.

I would still love to see them though ,uru

[liamdelaney 2,586]

 

 

Jetro, 15" and smaller sometimes, mates had JRT's bigger BUT these feckers had massive heads and we never weighed 'em!

its hard to get small ones today, they sound like very handy ones to have around,

always prefered the smaller type myslef.

atb, j

 

 

 

Bosun11,

This was the type I remember in Southern Ireland back in the 70's.

The skinhead culture was not as evident as in the UK but there were pockets in the cities.

These small staffs were everywhere at that time, some older Staff breeders must know where they came from.

Mostly a dark red colouring with black muzzles if I remember correctly.

 

First Staffs registered in the US.jpg

The Stafford bitch on the right is similar in build, small, light, very agile.

These staffs must have been bred by the right kennels as this particular bitch was exported to the US in the mid 60's. (The dog with her was aslo exported.)

These are the first registered Staffs in the US.

She has a pedigree going back 6 generations.

 

Stone Bella 1966.jpg

Here she is with her owner at a show in 1966.

 

Oxcroft Rocket and Staff 1960s.jpg

Another photo which gives a comparison of smaller staffs in the 60's.

This black staff was from the Jolihem kennel.

The Border is Oxcroft Rocket.

 

Plenty of smaller staffs around in the 70's if someone wanted to infuse bull blood.

 

A lot of the Jolihem breeding would have been in Cuilleog breeding and CH breeding,we bred plenty of those red and fawn dogs with black muzzles back in the day.They ranged from 16 inches down to fourteen.We done everything with them, field work, trial work, and then some.All that breeding came from English show dogs,but people forget those show dogs were not long out of the pit and were dead game.As said before plenty of terrier men came to us to use them,and would mostly go for the small dogs to try and keep down size,we also bred some 17 to 18 inches, they were giving out to men for a different job.One thing they all had in common was they were dead game.

[Bosun11 537]

 

 

Jetro, 15" and smaller sometimes, mates had JRT's bigger BUT these feckers had massive heads and we never weighed 'em!

its hard to get small ones today, they sound like very handy ones to have around,

always prefered the smaller type myslef.

atb, j

 

 

 

Bosun11,

This was the type I remember in Southern Ireland back in the 70's.

The skinhead culture was not as evident as in the UK but there were pockets in the cities.

These small staffs were everywhere at that time, some older Staff breeders must know where they came from.

Mostly a dark red colouring with black muzzles if I remember correctly.

 

First Staffs registered in the US.jpg

The Stafford bitch on the right is similar in build, small, light, very agile.

These staffs must have been bred by the right kennels as this particular bitch was exported to the US in the mid 60's. (The dog with her was aslo exported.)

These are the first registered Staffs in the US.

She has a pedigree going back 6 generations.

 

Stone Bella 1966.jpg

Here she is with her owner at a show in 1966.

 

Oxcroft Rocket and Staff 1960s.jpg

Another photo which gives a comparison of smaller staffs in the 60's.

This black staff was from the Jolihem kennel.

The Border is Oxcroft Rocket.

 

Plenty of smaller staffs around in the 70's if someone wanted to infuse bull blood.

 

That's it p3d they were (are?) around. Those photo's clearly show the size of Staffords back then and I'm sure the range was quite broad too. Not everyone was breeding for the show bench!

These days our views can be clouded from the past as we live in a world with huge bull breeds all over our inner cities but back then it was different.

Your right, it really wouldn't be hard to find the right type of working bull blood to add to a line of terrier if a breeder so wished.

Nice photo with Jack Price too, a man I would have liked to have met.

[p3d 879]

Liam,Bosun11,

 

I think everyone with eyes in their head now knows that the black terriers were created with small Staff blood.

As such they are a bull/terrier cross just like a bull Russell cross.

Why the breeders feel the need to keep it quiet as Liam said tells me that they are fooling the lads that are getting the pups.

Along the way the "written pedigree" is false if they hide the bull inclusion.

Because these men given the name of starting the strain do not tell us when it came into the line

the MYTH that they all decended from 2 open coated fell (dark bedlington type) terriers will survive.

 

As long as they work, what does it matter?

The fact that these black stud dogs were bred to hundreds of unproven bitches to creat the large number of the black strain. so be it.

The men who started this strain advertised that they did this.

But IMO let us not fool ourselves with a romantic history, let the show crowd do that.

 

Men who lived in Patterdale and who's family were from there have stated that

there were no smooth black dogs in the area as they grew up.

in their words " it's a load of bo££ox".

 

I personally have always liked the bull russell type if you can get them small enough but that is the problem.

I admire the quality of the Black smooth terriers being worked today, small, strong, compact game little dogs.

 

It is a pity that the true history of these black dogs (and white dogs) will not be told.

[liamdelaney 2,586]

An old time fawn staff with a black muzzle,retired and over weight in this from my mothers feeding.He was put to a lot of terriers.He is back to Jolheim blood.

[liamdelaney 2,586]

Two more smaller types from long ago.

[liamdelaney 2,586]

Bigger stuff,back to Badgerlea Dambuster breeding.First prize as Bill Sykes and Bullseye in fancy dress LOL.

[Jack Daniels 33]

taken just 2 months ago 16 tts and 24lb weight....

Edited April 15, 2014 by Jack Daniels

[Glyn..... 5,208]

Liam,Bosun11,

 

I think everyone with eyes in their head now knows that the black terriers were created with small Staff blood.

As such they are a bull/terrier cross just like a bull Russell cross.

Why the breeders feel the need to keep it quiet as Liam said tells me that they are fooling the lads that are getting the pups.

Along the way the "written pedigree" is false if they hide the bull inclusion.

Because these men given the name of starting the strain do not tell us when it came into the line

the MYTH that they all decended from 2 open coated fell (dark bedlington type) terriers will survive.

 

As long as they work, what does it matter?

The fact that these black stud dogs were bred to hundreds of unproven bitches to creat the large number of the black strain. so be it.

The men who started this strain advertised that they did this.

But IMO let us not fool ourselves with a romantic history, let the show crowd do that.

 

Men who lived in Patterdale and who's family were from there have stated that

there were no smooth black dogs in the area as they grew up.

in their words " it's a load of bo££ox".

 

I personally have always liked the bull russell type if you can get them small enough but that is the problem.

I admire the quality of the Black smooth terriers being worked today, small, strong, compact game little dogs.

 

It is a pity that the true history of these black dogs (and white dogs) will not be told.

I don’t think the bull blood in the patterdales is just from staff and the lines which have had staff added are fairly well documented, I think a lot of the bull blood in the northern terriers was mixed a long time before there was any such thing as a staff, patterdale Lakeland border or bedlington and so on and just as now people selected as they breed them, and for the ones breed to work they also had to go through that selection, from the 18^th century on most lines carried pit-bull blood if a breeder started to select for strong heads smooth/ broken coats that’s type becomes more common within a line the problem being you don’t keep getting bully types so many who are/were obsessed with the look in the ’s and onwards did add staff or other bull mainly for the look , to add staff now would be madness because it’s just about coin and any old staff or black gets used

[neil cooney 10,416]

So tell us what bull blood and when was it introduced by Mr Breay and Frank Buck ?

Not all black terriers go back to certain breeders and not all strains have bull in them. IMO it's a myth that all smooth black terriers are a bull hybrid.

Some of the best strains in this day and age (not the the 70s,80s or the 90s) have come from smooth coated, hard working fell lines going back to the 60s and 70s and bypassed certain well known breeders.

Saying that certain breedings or ways of breeding is a myth is rubbish and a lot of so called facts seem to come from books and hearsay.

Jealousy also plays a big role in that if someone has kept a line that works hard and well for a long time some will say "sure he put bull in them".

As I've said before there's terriers out there if used would add more fire and terrier traits than what any bull blood could ever do and there are breeders (for themselves, not a market) out there who realise this.

 

In this day and age IMO it's not healthy to be saying that ALL our current terriers are fighting dog hybrids. They're not, they're terriers.

[Shamo 319]

I don't know if this has been covered,and I'm not looking for arguing,just thoughts,answers,input,hopefully minus arguments.

 

Often we hear this dog or line,has/d bull blood added.

When I hear that,subconsciously,I always assumed in the USA,bull blood,meant Pit,in the UK,Staff.

And I know I could be very wrong on both counts,just curious.

And I have to stress,I'm not trying to cause anyone trouble,just making conversation.

 

In lines/dogs,where there is known bull blood,can anyone tell which it was added? What about bull terrier? I know of some crosses that amount to such ferocious little dogs,that they can often be a huge grief,even though they are fully capable of carrying out the task of working.

 

Myself I don't mind dogs having bull blood,but also enjoy dogs without it.

 

Thank you,uru

Honestly mate, this subject has been done to death! There will be several long and debated Threads on this Site about the merits and negatives.

[p3d 879]

 

I don't know if this has been covered,and I'm not looking for arguing,just thoughts,answers,input,hopefully minus arguments.

 

Often we hear this dog or line,has/d bull blood added.

When I hear that,subconsciously,I always assumed in the USA,bull blood,meant Pit,in the UK,Staff.

And I know I could be very wrong on both counts,just curious.

And I have to stress,I'm not trying to cause anyone trouble,just making conversation.

 

In lines/dogs,where there is known bull blood,can anyone tell which it was added? What about bull terrier? I know of some crosses that amount to such ferocious little dogs,that they can often be a huge grief,even though they are fully capable of carrying out the task of working.

 

Myself I don't mind dogs having bull blood,but also enjoy dogs without it.

 

Thank you,uru

Honestly mate, this subject has been done to death! There will be several long and debated Threads on this Site about the merits and negatives.

 

 

Shamo,

 

I believe you are right, as long as there are people willing to muddy the waters then the Patterdale story will continue.

 

Sure what harm if the romantic story of the ancient (1970) Fell strains (smooth tight black coats with bully heads)

that never were known in the Patterdale area by the men that lived there persist.

 

That it is nearly impossible to see a photo of anyone before 1960 with these bully headed black smooth working dogs.

If they were as popular as some make out it should be easy to dig out a lot of evidence before 1960 with this type.

1950, 1940 etc....

 

I only ever saw one photo with a smooth dog that could be a terrier with an otterhound pack in the 30's.

 

We must not forget the even more historic (1980) chocolate strain (smooth tight coats with bully heads).

These are decended from very old water spaniel dogs.

 

ATB

P3D

[uru 341]

 

I don't know if this has been covered,and I'm not looking for arguing,just thoughts,answers,input,hopefully minus arguments.

Often we hear this dog or line,has/d bull blood added.

When I hear that,subconsciously,I always assumed in the USA,bull blood,meant Pit,in the UK,Staff.

And I know I could be very wrong on both counts,just curious.

And I have to stress,I'm not trying to cause anyone trouble,just making conversation.

In lines/dogs,where there is known bull blood,can anyone tell which it was added? What about bull terrier? I know of some crosses that amount to such ferocious little dogs,that they can often be a huge grief,even though they are fully capable of carrying out the task of working.

Myself I don't mind dogs having bull blood,but also enjoy dogs without it.

Thank you,uru

 

Honestly mate, this subject has been done to death! There will be several long and debated Threads on this Site about the merits and negatives.

Shamo

No disrespect,but I was asking a question out of simple curiosity,nothing more,and the fact that we're 8 pages into it,let's me know that apparently,there are others who are too,otherwise it would have been stopped on page 1.

 

Myself,I've enjoyed every post on this topic,and seen and read some real good opinions,without anybody souring it with trash talkers.

If it's been done to death,sorry,but I enjoyed it all,uru

[BIG G wheton machine 1,594]

I know there's bull blood in my dog and there's no direct crosses I know of him even back to his grand parents, where his granda is a small nuttal type and his grandmother is Middleton type lakey bitch, but my boy has a head with the look of bull influence