Added Bull/staff Blood

[Glyn..... 5,208]

there is a great interview written about Frank Buck in earthdog running dog, its well worth a read, and i'm not saying there is no bull blood in them, i'm saying that if there is a hint of bull it pre-dates the Staff , and those who are bull blood mad added more at a much later date and those lines are well documented not some great mystery

[Bosun11 537]

 

Glyn, I honestly think the true history of those black dogs will never be told.... Not now anyways....

 

HM, yep, seen that Bradleys Rip, if thats not out of bull stock i'll show me arse in Lewis's window!!

your probably right but to say they are all cross up bull blood isn't right

 

I totally agree with you Glyn, not all, by any means... That's how I started my posts on here but we can never deny the fact that there are many lines with direct bull blood, both near and far back and lets be honest here, not all of that blood has done any good to dogs that work underground. Those lines may look the part but in success rate terms they may really be lacking. People really need to realise that form should ALWAYS follow function...

[swede40 92]

i know 1 of frank buck's bitchs was mated to a dog worked by paddy simmonds when he was doing abit of digging with him and mick givens and billy taylor in the cheviots and the dog that was mated to the bitch was border/glen mix

[swede40 92]

I never saw no influence of bull in frank bucks dogs to be honest i never asked him if there was i got my first terrier of frank buck when i was a spratt and i kept the same 1's for a long time i was never really fussed on what was in them and didnt really have a clue about pedigrees lines etc when i was younger it never bothered me i know some worked well some not so well ive seen plenty pictures of my granda's dogs (paddy simmonds) they were big headed ugly things he had the odd smooth coated dog throw in a litter and he never had any bull terrier he kept the same dogs which he started from a border bitch which was owned by mick givens to a glen dog he fetched over from ireland in the very early 50's and they always threw big headed wide mouthed things the dogs of old could originate from anywhere we will never know but i think it does not always have to come from bull blooded dogs influence when we look at them and instantly say thats got bull terrier in it

[p3d 879]

 

Glyn,

 

That is not the type of terrier being discussed with an obvious Bull influence.

That is a wire /rough coated Fell terrier, same root stock as the Lakeland and Border.

 

These dogs are around today, there is no indication of bull in this terrier.

 

The post is about Bull influence in terrier lines (EBT, PIt, or Staff).

 

Not sure what this photo adds to the post? Breay was dead when the staff was added to make the Patterdale IMO.

 

You would have to show a photo of Breay or Buck with a terrier with bull influence to prove that they added it to the line.

Showing anyone with THAT TERRIER TYPE on the end of the lead shows that they had NOT (Yet).

Staff type head 01.jpg

i made the post because you seem to be dismissing the blood lines that many of us have terriers bred down from as fictitious, and that these bloodline came from dogs bred since the 70-80s and that the black/brown strong terriers now called patterdales are bull crosses, as i have stated the lines with bull blood added are fairly well documented, but not all lines have this blood, although you have made some sweeping statements implying that these bloodlines are all bullshit i've bred a few with heavy heads and jaws but there is no staff in them just a few of your quotes

 

I think everyone with eyes in their head now knows that the black terriers were created with small Staff blood

 

It is a pity that the true history of these black dogs (and white dogs) will not be told

 

"That it is nearly impossible to see a photo of anyone before 1960 with these bully headed black smooth working dogs.

If they were as popular as some make out it should be easy to dig out a lot of evidence before 1960 with this type.

1950, 1940 etc....

"We must not forget the even more historic (1980) chocolate strain (smooth tight coats with bully heads).

These are decended from very old water spaniel dogs"

 

Glyn,

 

Not sure where I said that these bloodlines are bullshit.

If you mean that these bloodlines are not good workers, I already said that I admire these small, strong compact game terriers.

 

If you mean that these bloodlines written pedigrees are not true.

Yes, I believe that certain strains have bull added and the breeders are hiding this. Not telling the truth.

 

The post was asking if / when EBT, Staff blood was entered into some terrier bloodlines.

Where I believed that EBT was entered into white lines and Staff was put into black terrier lines I backed it up with

images of smaller dogs both small white bull terriers from TRING and staff dogs from the 60's.

These were examples of bull crosses that were available at that time.

 

I specifically mentioned Mr Nuttalls line of dogs more than once, giving respect to the man for being able to breed bull in and keeping the size down.

Mr Nuttal has admitted on more than one occasion that he put staff into his line. Other times he denies it.

I trust my eyes when looking at a terrier and if I see attributes that betray a bull inclusion I call it like I see it.

Simple as that. If a terrier is 12 to 16 lbs weight with narrow shoulders and no evidence of bull attributes in the head.

I take it that the line has very little bull influence.

 

I also believe that going back too far and saying that bull is in all terriers history is muddying the waters.

Mentioning Aynsley, Hinks,Porter, Breay, Buck is too far back. It is history, but foundation strains not relevant to this post IMO.

What is really being asked is do some strains/lines have a strong inclusion of bull blood recently.

In the last 30 years or less, so after 1970.

 

These breeders are still alive so to clear up any confusion should be easy.

But i don't think we will get a clear answer now. You would have to wonder why?

 

There are still Russell, Fell, Working lakeland terriers that are nearly all bull free today.

To me they are more terrier in their make up.

[Bosun11 537]

The dogs Frank Buck showed at Gt Yorks in the 80's were a fair bit different than anything shown in any old photo's of him, not anywhere near those old' Bordery' types. They were narrow fronted, rough, black dogs. More Fell than Patterdale, if you get my gist...?

 

Then Mr Breay... And though I agree with you p3d, that it is too far back, especially when you think of 'other' recent lines, the photo's in Plummers Fell Terrier are both interesting and relevant because that is largely where 'recent' (1980's through) bull influence sprang from IMO ...

According to Fell Terrier (and we all should read it as flawed but still the best source) that bitch we have just seen a pic of was called Skiffle, daughter of Davy. According to the book, in the pedigree of bloodlines shown, the first black in the line was Gem, which produced Davy which put to Tig, produced Rusy and W.W.'s Kipper.... Maybe its just me but both Rusty and Kipper seem a long way off dogs shown in the 'linage' a few generations back.... Body shape, body length, coat, even the dock (!) ain't anyways near the same from those photo's....?

I dug Fell terrier out to look back at those dogs, it's been a while since I turned them pages.... And so flicking through... Nuttalls dog is interesting, so is Hinchcliffe's dog but old Ralph Hodgson is the most interesting... A great big, brindle fell terrier(?)

 

You know, looking at that book, that Penny bitch of Nuttall's really did stand out, just chance, or a clever picture (?) and along with the old pics of W.W.'s Kipper and the write up, that sold the dogs in that 80's boom, certainly stood out to a 15 year old me..!!!

 

Anyway's enough of them old days and so who's gonna be honest about lines that 'may' carry direct bull blood... A starter (?)... Just from a Google search, what about this..???

[Glyn..... 5,208]

a edited version of the F.Buck interview published on the net in the USA Frank Buck’s first terrier came to him from his father, a gypsy who had kept his own type of terrier for many years – a line which Frank eventually carried on. Incidentally, Frank’s father bred the famous dog Red Ike, a dog that would take a hold of anything and once fastened on to a deer, which it eventually brought down. John Park says that Mr. Breay told him that at that time no one had a strain of terriers apart from Frank and the six Fell packs who each had their own localized strain and of course, Frank carried forward his father’s strain. Frank took his father’s advice, he told Frank how to breed them and the secrets passed from father to son. “They had a lot of bedlington in them in those days” said Frank, “all the fell terriers did. They couldn’t stand the cold. Not if it was blowing, frosty, snowy stuff. Could they buggery!! It used to blow their coats, they used to starve but he bred them down to a good coat in the end. He put Sealyham into them and bred off that until they got lovely coats, and then he mated a black and tan bitch to a blue dog. There was a lot of blue in them, really blue, belonging to Porter, Eskdale and Ennerdale. They were a gentleman’s pack then but he died and left them and eventually Edmund Porter’s grandfather started hunting them. Well they used his dog and got a ‘black un’. ‘One black bitch; just one black pup’. So he lined her again next time and she had two blacks, a dog and a bitch. There’s where it started. He inbred for a bit to keep them black and now you can put a black dog on almost anything and they will get black. So that’s how they got the black terriers. Frank was about twelve years of age when his father gave him his first dog, Punch. Punch was black and tan, out of black breeding, described by Frank as ‘ a hell of a good ‘un’ At this time a Gamekeeper by the name of Dick Brown asked Frank to go with to try and find and kill a fox. Frank entered Myrtle. “Get gun ready” said Dick, “you should kill him before he gets out of the check hole,” and with that, young Buck raised the .410 and killed the fox ‘clean as a whistle’ Dick Brown was a happy man gave Frank a double barreled .410 shotgun. Dick Brown was also good friends with Mr Breay and that was how Frank, a mere lad, got to know the great man. Even so many years later when frank asked to use one of Mr Breay terrier for stud, he wouldn’t let the young man to quote “Then, years after, skipping a hell of a lot of work, I asked old Breay if I could use one of his, would he buggery? He wouldn’t let anybody use his dog – a dog called Ozzie, black and tan, a bloody good un an all. Nobody had better. This was about 1929/30 and I knew him well but he wouldn’t let me use his dog. But then he got a hell of a good bitch stuck fast. What was her name? Damn, can’t remember the name, something like Greta”.

 

But sometime later one of Mr. Breays Terriers became trapped, Frank being an expert with dynamite; it was such a bad place that Mr. Breay approached Frank more or less as a last resort. It was the only hope of rescue for the terrier.

 

Mr Breays

 

“Can you get her out?”

 

Frank Buck

 

“Aye! Maybe?”

 

Frank Buck would say “there was a lump of bloody rock! it came out of ground on other side, it’s still there today, settled into the hill! What a bloody size! “Twas like a bloody house! But I knew it wouldn’t hurt the dog because there was a clay back through so it would lift off. It was the only hope anyway.

 

Mr. Breay had two terriers with him besides and he said, “Which would you like to use?” I said “This un when it comes time” and I said, “I like that lal blue bitch of yours”.

 

He said, “Do you?”

 

I said, “Aye, I do, I like her”.

 

He said “I’ll give you her”.

 

This was Tiger “She, were a bloody good ‘un’. I had her till she died when she were eighteen years old. I bred off her and I bred a great dog of Breay’s by a dog from the Bedale kennels. Now I’ll tell you how I got hold of him”. “Bedale had run in one day and I stopped and watched for a bit, with the wagon. I had a good terrier, it was her anyway, Tiger, it was her. I walked across, I knew the master, Major Burden and he says “We can’t get it out of here Frank”. “Well” I says “I’ve wifes lal terrier wi me, if tha likes we shall try it cos, I says, that bugger’s useless that’s waffling there”. And he laughed, he was grand old man, and he says “What will wife say?” and I says “I don’t know if it will go or not (because there were a lot of people about) but we will try it”. So he got together bugger out, fox wouldn’t bolt, would it hell. So I popped her in, it was only like a tree hole, it bloody lifted did bloody old tree nearly – out it flew. Major Burden didn’t go, he stopped, he said ‘How much do you want for that? Will your wife sell it?” I said, “No, she’ll play hell if she knows its been in”.

 

So he came up at night and he was talking and Ivy said, “Major Burden, it isn’t my dog. He didn’t want to put it in to be showed up if it didn’t bolt it”. She was straight about it. So he said “I would like to use Craney (a dog called Craney) on her and have a pup”. Fair enough. Can do. And she had five pups. He got one – it make a good ‘un’. I kept two and old Breay got the other two. He lost them both in holes. Got ‘em – but dead”.

 

In all this time other than mentioning mating Sealyham (a top class badger dog at the time) improve coats of the bedlington types all mating where made to maintain or improve working ability, Craney was a border terrier

 

Frank Buck say “And then I bred him a lot – Skittle, Jet, Monty, he never hardly bred a terrier, he got them from me. But he was a good man, they were half his breed and he knew how they were bred. He used to look at pups and say “I like that, I like that. We will keep these, we’ll not sell them”. And then he would bring me three back, ready for work almost but he would keep one, he always kept the best. I just had to start to work them when he brought them back. He was a good keeper of a dog, they would come back lovely.

So Breay’s lines got to mix with the lines Franks father’s dogs.

Frank Buck said “Cyril’s lines came one from Scotland and one from Maryport, a bloke called Robinson. I knew his dogs and they were all right but he died and I went to see his dogs to use them for stud purposes – bull in them – no good. Makes them too hard and too quiet. When they were working to badger they would just end up with a short life.” Frank mentions bull line the breeding as something which spoils them and surely this may be the vital distinction between what we have come to know as the Patterdale which in now a distinctly different type to the Fell/Lakeland, whatever.

Frank Buck gave Cyril Breay black bitches long before Skiffle. There were two which he describes as ‘good ‘un’, Murray and Dazzle. He describes Ozzie as a hell of a dog, blue, almost black. Bing was blood red. He worked for many hunts with his terriers and said that in those days everyone mucked in together and enjoyed: themselves

 

Its was during years of the Second World War, Frank buck was unable to join the army, as he had a steel plate in his head after he had a fall while point to pointing.

John Park says that this was the time when Frank Buck and Cyril Breay developed their terriers and cemented their lines. There was no other hunting taking place during the war years and the two friends were in great demand. Frank owned a motorbike and he would meet Breay and off they would go in Breay’s car. They worked all over the place, few people owned a car then and over those years they had all the work they could handle from grateful farmers anxious for fox control

John Parks says that in the mid to late fifties Frank was breeding terriers which are today in the bloodlines, somewhere, of practically all the black dogs in Britain today it was Frank who created the black terrier and the first lot all had pricked ears and even today they sometimes crop up. John believes the reason for this is that Frank used a Scottish terrier in the early days – not a bull- never a bull, for Frank was dead against any bull blood in his terriers. He didn’t want that at all. Many of the early dogs had a white foot and again, this sometimes occurs even now.

 

Frank was very secretive about the breeding of his dogs and John says that he would never tell how they were bred but later on, some facts would gradually emerge. In later years Frank never bred close – he bred to type. Breay bred close – always. But John says that Frank Buck had some of the best terriers that ever entered an earth. They were tough all right but Frank never wanted bull blood. He wanted sense as well as courage and John Park himself, will not breed a real hard dog to a real hard bitch. He says that the pups can come too hard and will usually fail after a while But Cyril Breay’s maxim was ‘never breed to a terrier that can’t regularly kill his fox”.

[Glyn..... 5,208]

n

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Glyn.....

[pablo esc 1,598]

Amazing, but real. They. Knew the best, would the breed of Scottish terrier, types, came from workers and hard types to, black, choc, red, without crossed back in.

[Bosun11 537]

nuttalls Penny and punch not looking as bully as in the Fell terrier i think the whole bull twist comes from Plummer he seemed infatuated with bull bred terrier and wouldn't miss a chance to liken the black dogs to little bulls, i don't think he thought these game little workers could be game with out bull blood he was after all bastardizing the breay/buck line to produce the plummer terrier with its beagle and pitbull crosses

Glyn, I think that's the nail on the head, right there..!

[p3d 879]

The dogs Frank Buck showed at Gt Yorks in the 80's were a fair bit different than anything shown in any old photo's of him, not anywhere near those old' Bordery' types. They were narrow fronted, rough, black dogs. More Fell than Patterdale, if you get my gist...?

 

Then Mr Breay... And though I agree with you p3d, that it is too far back, especially when you think of 'other' recent lines, the photo's in Plummers Fell Terrier are both interesting and relevant because that is largely where 'recent' (1980's through) bull influence sprang from IMO ...

According to Fell Terrier (and we all should read it as flawed but still the best source) that bitch we have just seen a pic of was called Skiffle, daughter of Davy. According to the book, in the pedigree of bloodlines shown, the first black in the line was Gem, which produced Davy which put to Tig, produced Rusy and W.W.'s Kipper.... Maybe its just me but both Rusty and Kipper seem a long way off dogs shown in the 'linage' a few generations back.... Body shape, body length, coat, even the dock (!) ain't anyways near the same from those photo's....?

I dug Fell terrier out to look back at those dogs, it's been a while since I turned them pages.... And so flicking through... Nuttalls dog is interesting, so is Hinchcliffe's dog but old Ralph Hodgson is the most interesting... A great big, brindle fell terrier(?)

 

You know, looking at that book, that Penny bitch of Nuttall's really did stand out, just chance, or a clever picture (?) and along with the old pics of W.W.'s Kipper and the write up, that sold the dogs in that 80's boom, certainly stood out to a 15 year old me..!!!

 

Anyway's enough of them old days and so who's gonna be honest about lines that 'may' carry direct bull blood... A starter (?)... Just from a Google search, what about this..???

 

 

Someone must know?

 

Staff

Patterdale?

[YOKEL 2,216]

here's a train of thought to peruse over. at the end of the 18th and into the 19th century, if we are to believe the history books, certain sporting types began crossing the heavy bodied bulldogs of the day with the game, earth working terriers in order to produce a more agile fighting dog. now these first crosses must have thrown all sorts of types, ranging from terrier size to bulldog size, and , the ideal, somewhere in between. i have heard many a discussion between game dog fanciers, where they would argue this cross never took place, and that the box dogs of today are pure bulldawg from yester year....i personally suspect that the more rangy, terrier type of gamedogs are throwing back to those crosses made so far back in history, so maybe, just maybe, some of the earlier bull and terrier crosses that threw a size still capable of earth work were crossed back into the terriers, and over the yrs that bulldog blood has sometimes thrown back a typey dawg??? this could explain why we get bully types in lines that there is no immediate knowledge of bull blood inclusion....just a thought...

Yokel

[Glyn..... 5,208]

 

The dogs Frank Buck showed at Gt Yorks in the 80's were a fair bit different than anything shown in any old photo's of him, not anywhere near those old' Bordery' types. They were narrow fronted, rough, black dogs. More Fell than Patterdale, if you get my gist...?

 

Then Mr Breay... And though I agree with you p3d, that it is too far back, especially when you think of 'other' recent lines, the photo's in Plummers Fell Terrier are both interesting and relevant because that is largely where 'recent' (1980's through) bull influence sprang from IMO ...

According to Fell Terrier (and we all should read it as flawed but still the best source) that bitch we have just seen a pic of was called Skiffle, daughter of Davy. According to the book, in the pedigree of bloodlines shown, the first black in the line was Gem, which produced Davy which put to Tig, produced Rusy and W.W.'s Kipper.... Maybe its just me but both Rusty and Kipper seem a long way off dogs shown in the 'linage' a few generations back.... Body shape, body length, coat, even the dock (!) ain't anyways near the same from those photo's....?

I dug Fell terrier out to look back at those dogs, it's been a while since I turned them pages.... And so flicking through... Nuttalls dog is interesting, so is Hinchcliffe's dog but old Ralph Hodgson is the most interesting... A great big, brindle fell terrier(?)

 

You know, looking at that book, that Penny bitch of Nuttall's really did stand out, just chance, or a clever picture (?) and along with the old pics of W.W.'s Kipper and the write up, that sold the dogs in that 80's boom, certainly stood out to a 15 year old me..!!!

 

Anyway's enough of them old days and so who's gonna be honest about lines that 'may' carry direct bull blood... A starter (?)... Just from a Google search, what about this..???

 

 

Someone must know?

 

Staff 001a.jpg

Staff

Smooth Black 001a.jpg

Patterdale?

 

i think if these two dogs were photographed next to each other you would see a huge difference in type, its all about perspective and not just the perspective from camera use but from the viewer , also the black dog may have seen some work before that photo was taken and as we all know a few rat bites can make the head look swollen some what enlarged

Edited April 17, 2014 by Glyn.....

[J Darcy 5,871]

 

The dogs Frank Buck showed at Gt Yorks in the 80's were a fair bit different than anything shown in any old photo's of him, not anywhere near those old' Bordery' types. They were narrow fronted, rough, black dogs. More Fell than Patterdale, if you get my gist...?

 

Then Mr Breay... And though I agree with you p3d, that it is too far back, especially when you think of 'other' recent lines, the photo's in Plummers Fell Terrier are both interesting and relevant because that is largely where 'recent' (1980's through) bull influence sprang from IMO ...

According to Fell Terrier (and we all should read it as flawed but still the best source) that bitch we have just seen a pic of was called Skiffle, daughter of Davy. According to the book, in the pedigree of bloodlines shown, the first black in the line was Gem, which produced Davy which put to Tig, produced Rusy and W.W.'s Kipper.... Maybe its just me but both Rusty and Kipper seem a long way off dogs shown in the 'linage' a few generations back.... Body shape, body length, coat, even the dock (!) ain't anyways near the same from those photo's....?

I dug Fell terrier out to look back at those dogs, it's been a while since I turned them pages.... And so flicking through... Nuttalls dog is interesting, so is Hinchcliffe's dog but old Ralph Hodgson is the most interesting... A great big, brindle fell terrier(?)

 

You know, looking at that book, that Penny bitch of Nuttall's really did stand out, just chance, or a clever picture (?) and along with the old pics of W.W.'s Kipper and the write up, that sold the dogs in that 80's boom, certainly stood out to a 15 year old me..!!!

 

Anyway's enough of them old days and so who's gonna be honest about lines that 'may' carry direct bull blood... A starter (?)... Just from a Google search, what about this..???

 

 

Someone must know?

 

Staff 001a.jpg

Staff

Smooth Black 001a.jpg

Patterdale?

 

I know everything there is to know about the bottom terrier........it was a bitch too. She had not been bitten when the photo was taken, but she had been worked.Only a small bitch of some 15-16 lb's at a guess and no bull in her for a long way back.

[Stabs 3]

I know that argument very well Yokel and it's something that I have spent a lot of time pondering over; too much time if truth be told. Regardless of whether we think that there is terrier in the pit-dogs, there have been well documented crossings between bulldogs and terriers, such as the Billy mentioned a few pages ago. If the Sealyham crosses to correct the linty open Bedlington coat carried by the early Fells is true, then there's bull blood there. There could also be bull blood by the infusion of white dog blood. The baiting sports that were well supported before and after the 1835 Act outlawed them were done by dogs with terrier blood in them. If bulldog and terrier crosses were still being done in the mid-19th century (and they were), then the terrier side of the breeding could well have contained bulldog blood already, so it was adding terrier as well as bull blood back to the bulldog side. There was a few posts about Jock of the Bushveldt on here, and some of you might remember that there was a dog named after this famous bull terrier, and this dog was one of the dogs mated to the (English) Bull Terrier in order to produce the coloured variant. If we accept that Billy is the father of the Manchester Terrier, and he was Bulldog x Bulldog/Terrier, then the Manchester started life heavily saturated in bull blood. This was then crossed to a bulldog to produce Jock, who was then mated into the (English) Bull Terrier lines. Using your argument Yokel, those crosses into the (English) Bull Terrier from what would become the Staffordshire, did any of the blood go the other way from those breedings? Just a thought. A lot of the more obvious bull influenced dogs in the terrier world, in the days before the locator, have actually ceased to exist as working dogs. The Manchester, The English White, Blue Paul, Cheshire, Dudley.....some I believe have been assimilated into other bloodlines...some ceased to have a function and died along with their vocations. Has the locator made what was once considered useless (the mute bull crosses), into a viable proposition? I don't know....I'm just thinking out loud here. Maybe the more modern (in some quarters) insistence on "one dog" allied to the evolution of technology meant that the requirement for a voice has been surpassed by the need for a harder dog? Now that being mute is no longer seen as the hindrance that it once was, maybe the main barrier to using bull blood was removed for all practical purposes?