Plummers Help

[Waz 4,262]

Does seem to be lots of thoughts of, going back to russell or patterdale. Has the plummer terrier gone down a cul-de-sac?

[keith j 1,088]

Size was bred out over a couple generations I own a bitch with new blood and seen dozens of others with new blood and they are all very similar in size averaging 12 to 14 tts. We're as some of the lines with old blood are so inbred as sexual dimorfism is rife. I've seen some males from certain strains stand over 16 inches tall and little scrorny bitches. I wouldn't be worrying to much about dogs with new blood In them as the're more uniform than a lot without it in. And after all it was Plummer himself that brought the outcross in. There are plenty of folk with new blood dogs and getting excellent results. even welsby has bin trying to come in the back door to use the new blood dogs,that I do know. It's we're the breed goes from here that matters not what's bin done in the past. We can all bitch on about this one and that one there's plenty good Plummers out there to take the breed forward as workers,just a shame about a lot of the folk that Own them. Keith j.

[fatlad 250]

thanks for the reply Keith why did he choose bull over a Russell or a pat

as an outcross,

[wirral countryman 2,110]

thanks for the reply Keith why did he choose bull over a Russell or a pat

as an outcross,

I'll tell you exactly why as I've had this conversation with him about the "Hacket white" first time round, Plummer hated the tag of "Russell type" or "strain of Russell" and his persistence to breed a different colour and coat pattern was always to the forefront in every mating he did so there was a visible difference, he hated any white bodied dog and would never breed off or keep any white bodied progeny, Bull terriers are one of a few breeds were sexual dismorphism is not as apparent, dogs and bitches in a litter are of a comparative size, this was and still is a bugbear for all Plummer breeders, how to keep the body size down without losing head size and jaw power, it is an age old problem for all terriers not just Plummers, the patt was used and was important to the forming of the breed, in fact "PAGAN" who Plummer always considered his best allround bitch was a first cross Plummer/patt, I really don't know what possessed him to use a Bull for the second time other than the dismorphism issue, a good red smooth patt would of been easier to breed out size wise and far less litter wastage for "Tim" on the island of DR Moreaux (isle of horrors), my own take on it is the fact his cancer of the throat had probably spread to his brain along with the painkillers being opiate based would of made his decision making very poor and erratic, this is also my wifes clinical opinion as a specialist oncology nurse, she sees this on a daily basis, he was always a bit different anyway and was never wrong in his opinion,if you said it was black then he would say it was white, even this long after his death we are still discussing him and his dogs, he would of loved it, WM

[keith j 1,088]

Hello fatalad I'm no expert,but I do believe that bull blood was used rather than fell or Russell was not to improve working ability,but rather to improve health. As at that time(1990s)a lot of fells and Russell's carried Perths disease and pattella luxation as did a lot of Plummers at that time and sexual dimorphism was rife amongst the breed. To remedy these problems bull blood was used,hope this is of some use like I say I'm no expert but a lot of folk are using new blood dogs(the blood was introduced in 1998)happy hunting Keith j.

[Cleanspade 3,322]

 

 

Stick a good short leg Russell that's working a treat over a plummer

we did this many years ago when when the russells all had short legs. lol. pups came to small. and got mauled. as they had a fair bit of bottle. now a dog like Ace over one of the east essex terriers and i would jump on the waiting list

 

I'd be interested in seeing a few pics of that mating to see if they turned out like mine, what year would that of been then ?? You also mention in an earlier post that you would of liked to of seen the new blood crossed back to a good working terrier, well that's old news as I'm well ahead on that front, WM

 

i may have a pic or two somewhere. i will see if i can find them. my brother in law kept one it stopped at ten inch to the shoulder. and worked fine but lost most of its teeth pretty early in its working life. it was a tri.colour.. with good bone and a strong head. i will get a date for the pups. but as a ballpark figure. between twenty and twenty five years ago. . the sire used was a dog called wizard. owned by Helen jones. who stayed in ayrshire at the time. this info should help put a date on the litter as folk who follow plummer peds will be able to date the sire. he was knocking on at the time.

[Cleanspade 3,322]

 

 

 

Stick a good short leg Russell that's working a treat over a plummer

we did this many years ago when when the russells all had short legs. lol. pups came to small. and got mauled. as they had a fair bit of bottle. now a dog like Ace over one of the east essex terriers and i would jump on the waiting list

 

I'd be interested in seeing a few pics of that mating to see if they turned out like mine, what year would that of been then ?? You also mention in an earlier post that you would of liked to of seen the new blood crossed back to a good working terrier, well that's old news as I'm well ahead on that front, WM

 

Never happen

 

thought thats what you would say

[fatlad 250]

wc that's made me chuckle that about the white bodied dogs was at hancocks 87 or 88

with my pal and he was getting a white lurcher off hancock but said he wasn't sure

about the colour, plummer was there and told him no dog can be the wrong colour

[minion 29]

I had a plummer bitch from Uist. Legion Jade about 8 or 9 years ago. She was a great little dog but a devil for fighting with anything.

 

Are Plumbers still bad fighters?

[stormyboy 1,352]

I had a plummer bitch from Uist. Legion Jade about 8 or 9 years ago. She was a great little dog but a devil for fighting with anything.

 

Are Plumbers still bad fighters?

 

Yeah. I know of a couple of plumbers that will fight at the drop of a hat. Met some nasty plasterers and a psycho bricklayer once as well.

[wirral countryman 2,110]

 

I had a plummer bitch from Uist. Legion Jade about 8 or 9 years ago. She was a great little dog but a devil for fighting with anything.

 

Are Plumbers still bad fighters?

 

Yeah. I know of a couple of plumbers that will fight at the drop of a hat. Met some nasty plasterers and a psycho bricklayer once as well.

 

LOL's Bill, yes a lot of the old bred stuff were very dog aggressive "Minion", I've been out with a few that would kill each other over the first rat bolted and whilst rats bolted, getting away they were too busy still fighting to notice, although a lot of "new blood" are of a calm temperament by comparison there are still a lot of "nutters" that do not get the work to satisfy or tire them enough to calm them, Plummers need plenty of daily work to get the best out of them, my "new blood" bitch was bred in 2008 and is a very calm bitch that lives for work, she will avoid any confrontation with other dogs unless cornered but god help any dog that pushes her that far as her jaw power is immense due to the amount of bull, temperament is a quality I find very important when picking a sire or bitch for breeding off, atb, WM

[wirral countryman 2,110]

wc that's made me chuckle that about the white bodied dogs was at hancocks 87 or 88

with my pal and he was getting a white lurcher off hancock but said he wasn't sure

about the colour, plummer was there and told him no dog can be the wrong colour

Fatlad, you don't get much whiter than a white bull FFS, Plummer was a hypocrite of the highest order that changed his mind like the weather, maybe if he'd not f*cked about with trying to breed a different type of terrier then the Russell would of been a more popular choice for the working terrierman today, WM

[Waz 4,262]

What type of white bull?

[keith j 1,088]

Bull shite mate,because that's what you get on all these threads regarding Plummer terriers.love him or loath him makes no difference to me and personally couldn't give a shit either way.But some of us do choose to work his terriers and that is our own personally choice we're not forced to do so. Maybe if I New ten years ago what Know now about the bullshit and bickering amongst Plummer owners I would have stuck to working JRT. But I work Plummers with excellent results and out on a daily basis and that's just how it is. And like wm said these little dogs need daily stimulation to keep them functioning properly. That's me out of here so I can function properly myself by working my dogs,happy hunting.Keith j.

[tinytiger 828]

I had a plummer bitch from Uist. Legion Jade about 8 or 9 years ago. She was a great little dog but a devil for fighting with anything.

 

Are Plumbers still bad fighters?

 

 

thanks for the reply Keith why did he choose bull over a Russell or a pat

as an outcross,

I'll tell you exactly why as I've had this conversation with him about the "Hacket white" first time round, Plummer hated the tag of "Russell type" or "strain of Russell" and his persistence to breed a different colour and coat pattern was always to the forefront in every mating he did so there was a visible difference, he hated any white bodied dog and would never breed off or keep any white bodied progeny, Bull terriers are one of a few breeds were sexual dismorphism is not as apparent, dogs and bitches in a litter are of a comparative size, this was and still is a bugbear for all Plummer breeders, how to keep the body size down without losing head size and jaw power, it is an age old problem for all terriers not just Plummers, the patt was used and was important to the forming of the breed, in fact "PAGAN" who Plummer always considered his best allround bitch was a first cross Plummer/patt, I really don't know what possessed him to use a Bull for the second time other than the dismorphism issue, a good red smooth patt would of been easier to breed out size wise and far less litter wastage for "Tim" on the island of DR Moreaux (isle of horrors), my own take on it is the fact his cancer of the throat had probably spread to his brain along with the painkillers being opiate based would of made his decision making very poor and erratic, this is also my wifes clinical opinion as a specialist oncology nurse, she sees this on a daily basis, he was always a bit different anyway and was never wrong in his opinion,if you said it was black then he would say it was white, even this long after his death we are still discussing him and his dogs, he would of loved it, WM

 

 

funny-i was having a look through "omega" the other day and had a good look at pagan-cracking looking type-small,strong headed,typey-the bull terrier outcross was always going to produce some wastage,and be bred away from to the extent that there was little point in introducing it in the first place..Many famous patterdale studs were 1/4 bull and more-but they were in the right haNDS.,bred for work only and only the best workers bred from-a much slower process than having 5 generations in no time...granted one can select "lookers" in that time frame but not workers i.m.o--what im trying to say is that a dogs genetics only become apparant throughout its working life..often too late..Do you know if C.price is still breeding plummer types?